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2017 390 RR-S is a wussy-bike after crashes

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OK, so here's the deal. I bought my 390 for off-road riding.  I needed a licensed bike to connect trails and to be able to ride during Kalifornica's red-sticker season.  So, even tho' the bike is heavy, the engine is primo, the suspension is the best ever for rough trails, and it handles very well....BUT...when I crash it, it doesn't want to start!  Just today, twice, the first time on a fireroad, the front end washes, and I go down.  No biggie, I go to start it...it cranks, tries to start but no dice. I cycle the key, no dice.  I let it cool, now it just begins to run, but when I give it any throttle, it chokes.  Finally, after about ten minutes the thing cranks up and goes... everything is back to normal.

Then, a nasty 18" wide thistle-lined hillclimb, I'm just about to the top, but not enough traction and I lay it over and bail.   No big deal, it happens all the time.  Get the bike back up, walk it down the hill, and go to start it...same routine. Only now I'm in the middle of no-man's land...in a hole... no one around.  So, I says, " mebbe I should kick it over with the kickstart to keep the battery as charged as possible..."   I go to kick start it and the kick start barely moves...what a joke.  I see why it is being removed for the '18's, it doesn't work for beans anyway.  10 minutes later it fires up, but still flames out easily.  I used to own a kick-start only WR426.. and it was kickable...what's with this bike?

Does anyone have a clue as to how I can improve this situation?  This is what happens every time the bike goes down...one of these times I may lose battery charge and be screwed royally.  I do plan to install a headlight switch to reduce drain from that lamp, but that's not enough, IMO.  I thought mebbe increasing the idle speed slightly to help it at least run better at idle (without load as just getting into gear stalls it - thank you, dragging clutch!) so the battery would charge more, but the manual says that is considered tampering and affects the warranty.

Do I have to keep the bike on pussy trails only? Jeez.  I ride solo, and cannot afford this kind of drama.

Thanks for any input.

Edited by kawagumby
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That's strange.  Same bike, mine's been down a few times, once, ammo upside down when I botched a big log crossing, and it's always fired right back up.  

Maybe rattled some connections or wiring is where I'd start. 

It's not an easy kick start, but I can get mine in 3 kicks with not too much effort.  

I know some of the KTM crowd are carrying a light weight back up battery jump start for their FI non kickstart bikes.  Cheap insurance especially if riding solo

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Your bike is dying when the motor is at TDC and there's too much compression for the starter to move the piston. If you can't get it to move with the kicker, just put it in 5th gear and rock it back and forth a few times. This will cycle the piston just enough to get it out of TDC and it should turn over just fine.

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firffighter,

I don't know...the bike runs perfectly after about 10 minutes or so, you'd think a loose connection would show itself consistently.  The bike is down for a while pretty much upside down when this occurs, and I'm running the IMS 3 gal tank.

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14 minutes ago, woods-rider said:

Your bike is dying when the motor is at TDC and there's too much compression for the starter to move the piston. If you can't get it to move with the kicker, just put it in 5th gear and rock it back and forth a few times. This will cycle the piston just enough to get it out of TDC and it should turn over just fine.

No, the thing turns over just fine with the starter, it just doesn't want to fire up.  You know how a bike acts when it's flooded... it's kind of like that..it'll catch for few beats, then die... over and over again. But it's not flooded, no fuel smell, and acts lean at first. Finally after some time expires, it'll fire up and run, but acts like it's lean at the lower throttle settings, you give it gas and it flames out.  After more time it gets stronger, but will die at idle unless I keep the throttle up.  After a few minutes more of riding it decides to run normally.   Almost like air in the fuel lines need to get purged or something.

Hmmm, I wonder if it's sucking in some air (frothing?) while the fuel pump is running while upside down....mebbe I should hit the kill switch immediately when the bike goes down, even if the engine's not running.  What do you guys think?

Edited by kawagumby

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Hmm,  

Almost sounds like its vapor locked or something. 

Have you tried cracking the fuel cap after a crash to relieve pressure?  

Really not sure what's going on.  Hopefully someone else has experienced this and can help

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Do a passive re-set on the ecu system.

If you do not do this before each ride (when the temp or elevation changes signifigantly), you may experience poor running and starting.  I know I do.

I would take the bike to the dealer and have them reflash the ecu and recalibrate the tps, if that does not help.

Also, if you kill the motor by mistake (flame out, high gear stall, crash) you need to wait at least 5+ sec before starting again, or you will confuse the ECU.    If I try to start mine right away, it will NOT start. If I wait, it starts immeditately.  I find I must wait 5+ sec after any failed start, as well.

 

By the way, your battery will not start to charge until you are going 15mph plus...for at least 10 min or so. 

Edited by THE KRAN
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17 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

Do a passive re-set on the ecu system.

 

By the way, your battery will not start to charge until you are going 15mph plus...for at least 10 min or so. 

I'll try the ECU restart, as the problems seemed to coincide with high temps here.  Thanks for that.

What's with the 15 mph plus for charging?  Is that an ECU thing?  I ride some really tight single track that is first and second gear... no way am I getting up to over 15 mph consistently for up to hours sometimes.  Why would rolling speed have anything to do with the charging system being activated?  That sounds strange.

Edited by kawagumby

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12 minutes ago, kawagumby said:

I'll try the ECU restart, as the problems seemed to coincide with high temps here.  Thanks for that.

What's with the 15 mph plus for charging?  Is that an ECU thing?  I ride some really tight single track that is first and second gear... no way am I getting up to over 15 mph consistently for up to hours sometimes.  Why would rolling speed have anything to do with the charging system being activated?  That sounds strange.

Most battery charging systems don't actually charge below a certain speed, because there is too much load on the stator. 

I don't know the exact speed or time duration before charging, but that is what other brands are like.

You need a Li battery, and then it's all moot. I re-start my 430 40+ times a day in 100+ temps and it never lets me down.

Seriously, you HAVE to do the passive reset.  If you motor is under 20 hours, it is not broken in yet either, and will run and start harder. I think it's a clock in the ECU that affects it during this time, but I have no proof.

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58 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

Do a passive re-set on the ecu system.

If you do not do this before each ride (when the temp or elevation changes signifigantly), you may experience poor running and starting.  I know I do.

I would take the bike to the dealer and have them reflash the ecu and recalibrate the tps, if that does not help.

Also, if you kill the motor by mistake (flame out, high gear stall, crash) you need to wait at least 5+ sec before starting again, or you will confuse the ECU.    If I try to start mine right away, it will NOT start. If I wait, it starts immeditately.  I find I must wait 5+ sec after any failed start, as well.

 

By the way, your battery will not start to charge until you are going 15mph plus...for at least 10 min or so. 

Yes!  This is great advice! 

I have done the passive reset and I always wait the 5 seconds on all restarts.  I failed to wait on a restart once and it wouldn't start, only time it has done this.  

Like mentioned, you can purchase a light weight jump start kit. If I were soloing I'd definitely have one.

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Thanks guys, all the help is appreciated.  I will do the ECU reset tonight...and I have about 12 hours on the bike so maybe the kickstarter will work better as more time gets on it on too.  I really like the bike, it is a hoot to ride!  The 5 second restart isn't an issue with me, as it takes me a LOT longer than that to get that 270 lb bike back up on its wheels, LOL, - I'm getting kinda puny at 70 years old, and have shrunk down to about 145 lbs.  It surprises me that the suspension works so well for me...they must design for lighter guys.   I LOVE the way the suspension and torque can work together to hop over obstacles following any little jump or bump in the trail...it really makes it easy on my old bones.

Any suggestions on a Li battery?

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Li Batteries from Shorai have a great warranty that includes pro-rated replacement.....which is good, because they fail after a couple years, for me.

I now use Anti-Gravity batteries, which are more expensive, and lighter and/or smaller.

Your 390 should not be 270lbs......more like 262 with accessories.  My 430 is 267 with 3.2gal of gas and every guard known to man......

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That 5 sec thing is interesting. Must be a Beta thing since many other brands are known for instant re-starts which is a plus while in competition. Is it always necessary?

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20 minutes ago, YHGEORGE said:

That 5 sec thing is interesting. Must be a Beta thing since many other brands are known for instant re-starts which is a plus while in competition. Is it always necessary?

No 

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1 hour ago, kawagumby said:

Thanks guys, all the help is appreciated.  I will do the ECU reset tonight...and I have about 12 hours on the bike so maybe the kickstarter will work better as more time gets on it on too.  I really like the bike, it is a hoot to ride!  The 5 second restart isn't an issue with me, as it takes me a LOT longer than that to get that 270 lb bike back up on its wheels, LOL, - I'm getting kinda puny at 70 years old, and have shrunk down to about 145 lbs.  It surprises me that the suspension works so well for me...they must design for lighter guys.   I LOVE the way the suspension and torque can work together to hop over obstacles following any little jump or bump in the trail...it really makes it easy on my old bones.

Any suggestions on a Li battery?

Let the bike idle plenty long to do the ecu reset, the engine temp, not rad temp, has to hit 95c before the it starts to reset and it takes longer than you think, almost to the point where you're uncomfortable letting it idle that long.  I have the Beta efi tool so I can watch the engine temp and when the settings actually start to change and I've timed it but now I forgot the exact minutes it takes.  Btw this resets the stepper motor.

Also a couple things to check, the spark plug boots are pulled loose for shipping, make sure the dealer seated it down good.  Check the clamp on the intake boot right in front of the throttle body, I've had some loose/broken and I replace them with the kind behind the throttle body.  If it doesn't restart after laying it down maybe try to unplug the tip over kill switch which is right behind the battery under the seat and see if it will fire. 

As for kicking, all the 4 strokes are tight and a bitch to kick when new, it takes 30 hours for that engine to loosen up.  I don't think I was able to start my 390 by kicking even at 30 hours.

40 minutes ago, YHGEORGE said:

That 5 sec thing is interesting. Must be a Beta thing since many other brands are known for instant re-starts which is a plus while in competition. Is it always necessary?

I've never heard of nor experienced this 5 second delay in starting.  I'm going to try instant restarts after stalling my bike tomorrow to test the validity of this.

Edited by Danceswithtrees
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1 hour ago, YHGEORGE said:

That 5 sec thing is interesting. Must be a Beta thing since many other brands are known for instant re-starts which is a plus while in competition. Is it always necessary?

Never heard this before. It would be a real issue in the tight racing with crashes we do. Bike always starts right back up quickly after a crash. 

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3 minutes ago, YHGEORGE said:

Hmmmm, another Krannie-ism perhaps?

 

3 minutes ago, YHGEORGE said:

Hmmmm, another Krannie-ism perhaps?

You don't have a BETA. Why do you continue to Troll and ridicule those trying to help.

 

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Yes, it's completely true. Beta's cannot be raced and you need to let the bike sit for 5 seconds each time you set out, thus falling fast behind your competitors only to eventually DQ because you chose to ride a Beta :facepalm:

 

When you shut the ignition off, it's advised when restarting the bike to turn the ignition on and let the fuel pump cycle before hitting your starter. This is ONLY when turning off your ignition.  

When you stall or hit the kill.switch, hit your starter and the bike immediately fires.

BTW, the Beta starter fires IMMEDIATELY, giving you an unfair advantage over your orange competitors with their weak whimpy staters from India:thumbsup:

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1 hour ago, YHGEORGE said:

That 5 sec thing is interesting. Must be a Beta thing since many other brands are known for instant re-starts which is a plus while in competition. Is it always necessary?

Yes, because, BETA and Sherco are the only dirtbikes in the western world using the Synerject FI system.  

I can start/kill/start/kill no problem.

It's when you puke-kill the motor, then you need to wait.   With my KTM  you had to open the throttle 1/4 to get it to start, no matter what, after stalling. 

You can ALSO PULL THE HIGH IDLE KNOB too if you want it to start after a bad stall.

Why is this information so controversial.  I just don't get it.

 

I showed this to the BETA dealer/ Douglas Motorsports, and he was dumbfounded that no one had ever showed him this before.  They had a prototype Xtrainer with a 300 motor in it, and the rider could not start it after stalling it in the parking lot. I showed him and the the owner the trick, and Viola, it started.

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