2017 390 RR-S is a wussy-bike after crashes

[ccullins]

7 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

Yes, because, BETA and Sherco are the only dirtbikes in the western world using the Synerject FI system.  

I can start/kill/start/kill no problem.

It's when you puke-kill the motor, then you need to wait.   With my KTM  you had to open the throttle 1/4 to get it to start, no matter what, after stalling. 

You can ALSO PULL THE HIGH IDLE KNOB too if you want it to start after a bad stall.

Why is this information so controversial.  I just don't get it.

 

I showed this to the BETA dealer/ Douglas Motorsports, and he was dumbfounded that no one had ever showed him this before.  They had a prototype Xtrainer with a 300 motor in it, and the rider could not start it after stalling it in the parking lot. I showed him and the the owner the trick, and Viola, it started.

Not being controversial, just nothing that I've ever seen or heard of. I mean Ty (Ty Cullins Beta Factory rider ?) has stalled, tipped over and crashed hard including having his bike upside down and he can grab it and start it immediately. If he had to wait 5 seconds there would be some serious issues!

Maybe it's a RR-S thing with a keyed ignition? Not sure how a 2-stroke xtrainer fits in. Two stroke Betas start immediately. 

 

 

[Johnny Depp]

1 hour ago, Danceswithtrees said:

Also a couple things to check, the spark plug boots are pulled loose for shipping, make sure the dealer seated it down good.  Check the clamp on the intake boot right in front of the throttle body, I've had some loose/broken and I replace them with the kind behind the throttle body.  If it doesn't restart after laying it down maybe try to unplug the tip over kill switch which is right behind the battery under the seat and see if it will fire. 

As for kicking, all the 4 strokes are tight and a bitch to kick when new, it takes 30 hours for that engine to loosen up.  I don't think I was able to start my 390 by kicking even at 30 hours.

Great input here.

That spark plug boot is a  MF. I cut about 1/2" off the bottom of mine to get it to seat properly. How do you do it?

There have been reports of broken clamps on the front of the throttle body going back to 2015 350's that caused problems until discovered.

I'm on a 480/500 and kicking is a joke. Only 1 time have I done it successfully, tried several times. 60+ hours here and it doesn't get any better. No wonder they got rid of it, it sucks. You better have on boots, find a really good place to stand with your left foot on something solid up high, and kick steady, not jabbing at it like a 2 stroke. Even then, it's hard to find TDC and the starter gear seems to occasionally "slip" and you end up half way through the stroke. It seems like it might be geared wrong, and I would not recommend anyone on a 4t waste any money on an '18 buying a kickstart kit.

KawaGumby, Good on you for riding hard trail at your age. Impressive that you are confident enough in your skills to go "out there" alone. I would sure get rid of that green thing under your gas cap, in the heat this time of year we always have people with problems like yours that usually never resurface after getting rid of the "vapor lock maker". Keep in mind that if you end up upside down (or doing backflips) some fuel could leak. So no smoking immediately afterwards.

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Johnny Depp

[kawagumby]

1 hour ago, Danceswithtrees said:

Let the bike idle plenty long to do the ecu reset, the engine temp, not rad temp, has to hit 95c before the it starts to reset and it takes longer than you think, almost to the point where you're uncomfortable letting it idle that long.  I have the Beta efi tool so I can watch the engine temp and when the settings actually start to change and I've timed it but now I forgot the exact minutes it takes.  Btw this resets the stepper motor.

Also a couple things to check, the spark plug boots are pulled loose for shipping, make sure the dealer seated it down good.  Check the clamp on the intake boot right in front of the throttle body, I've had some loose/broken and I replace them with the kind behind the throttle body.  If it doesn't restart after laying it down maybe try to unplug the tip over kill switch which is right behind the battery under the seat and see if it will fire. 

 

Thanks for the info. 

I did the reset using 240 F rather than 203 (95C), as that was the info I had...then shut it off for one minute and restarted it.  I have a laser thermometer that I had aimed at the left hand radiator hose, but it read about 30 degrees cooler than the dash temperature readout - so I went with the dash readout.  It took a long time (15-20 minutes) to get to that temp - I use engine ice which didn't help, I'm sure.

Again, thanks for the info - I'll check the items you noted.  As I said, the strange thing is the engine becomes completely normal acting after about 5 minutes of riding once the bike eventually restarts following about 20 starter cycles encompassing the passage of 10-15 minutes or so. 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by kawagumby

[firffighter]

17 minutes ago, ccullins said:

Not being controversial, just nothing that I've ever seen or heard of. I mean Ty (Ty Cullins Beta Factory rider ?) has stalled, tipped over and crashed hard including having his bike upside down and he can grab it and start it immediately. If he had to wait 5 seconds there would be some serious issues!

Maybe it's a RR-S thing with a keyed ignition? Not sure how a 2-stroke xtrainer fits in. Two stroke Betas start immediately. 

 

 

Like I mentioned, the ONLY time the 5 seconds is needed is when you turn off the key.  Otherwise it's immediate refire on my '17 390 rrs.

My brother's 250rr has never once had a starting problem and that bike's been dumped and rolled down steep mt sides only to be picked up, hit the button and immediately start. 

[kawagumby]

21 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

KawaGumby, Good on you for riding hard trail at your age. Impressive that you are confident enough in your skills to go "out there" alone. I would sure get rid of that green thing under your gas cap, in the heat this time of year we always have people with problems like yours that usually never resurface after getting rid of the "vapor lock maker". Keep in mind that if you end up upside down (or doing backflips) some fuel could leak. So no smoking immediately afterwards.

 

Hey, I ride because I love it more than any other thing I've ever done.  I don't know how much longer I can keep it up, but this has been the best year for me so far - the Beta's I own are just plain fun to ride - I don't get bored like I have on other bikes in the past. 

I'm using an IMS tank with the unrestricted gas cap, so no green things in my barn, LOL...both my Beta's are setup that way.

Talking about fires tho', I am concerned about starting a wildfire when I dump the bike... the thumpers run pretty hot exhausts compared the the smokers. 

[MotoXImage]

Sorry if I missed this but, what temperture is it running at when this happens? My buddies RR 500 exhibits the same problems and the shop told him to pull out the thermostat. He's waiting on the 500RR-S EFI THERMOSTAT BYPASS Hoses by Samco and my money is on that solving the problem. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by MotoXImage
Reference wrong bike.

[kawagumby]

2 minutes ago, MotoXImage said:

Sorry if I missed this but, what temperture is it running at when this happens? My buddies RR 500 exhibits the same problems and the shop told him to pull out the thermostat. He's waiting on the 390 RR-S EFI THERMOSTAT BYPASS Hoses and my money is on that solving the problem. 

On the fireroad today, first crash, less than 200 degrees F.  I wasn't looking at the temp gauge, but it runs pretty cool with engine ice at speed.  It only runs hot when I'm trail riding really tight first gear stuff, and even then, it rarely exceeds 212 (and that was before the engine ice).  The only problem is a restart after a crash - it starts easily otherwise.

[FORMA MOTO]

It was the RS350, not the Xtrainer 300

[ccullins]

 Intermittent problems can be a bitch! Much easier if the bike just doesn't run.

Re-setting the stepper motor won't hurt like you've done, but I don't think it will really help. 

Of course check the electrical connections/spark plug cap etc. Also coil wires, we've had issues with those! If it does it again try pushing on those/wiggling them while trying to start the bike. 

Without putting it on the Service Tool and seeing what codes pop up it's really hard to tell with an EFI bike.

Edited July 27, 2017 by ccullins

[Singletrack_rider]

7 hours ago, THE KRAN said:

Do a passive re-set on the ecu system.

If you do not do this before each ride (when the temp or elevation changes signifigantly), you may experience poor running and starting.  I know I do.

I would take the bike to the dealer and have them reflash the ecu and recalibrate the tps, if that does not help.

Also, if you kill the motor by mistake (flame out, high gear stall, crash) you need to wait at least 5+ sec before starting again, or you will confuse the ECU.    If I try to start mine right away, it will NOT start. If I wait, it starts immeditately.  I find I must wait 5+ sec after any failed start, as well.

 

By the way, your battery will not start to charge until you are going 15mph plus...for at least 10 min or so. 

 

5 hours ago, YHGEORGE said:

That 5 sec thing is interesting. Must be a Beta thing since many other brands are known for instant re-starts which is a plus while in competition. Is it always necessary?

Its not just a Beta thing . My ktm 250xcf will not start after a flame out unless i wait about 5 or 10 seconds. If i hit the button to quickly after a stall it may not start for a couple of minutes. 

[weantright]

12 hours ago, THE KRAN said:

Yes, because, BETA and Sherco are the only dirtbikes in the western world using the Synerject FI system.  

I can start/kill/start/kill no problem.

It's when you puke-kill the motor, then you need to wait.   With my KTM  you had to open the throttle 1/4 to get it to start, no matter what, after stalling. 

You can ALSO PULL THE HIGH IDLE KNOB too if you want it to start after a bad stall.

Why is this information so controversial.  I just don't get it.

 

I showed this to the BETA dealer/ Douglas Motorsports, and he was dumbfounded that no one had ever showed him this before.  They had a prototype Xtrainer with a 300 motor in it, and the rider could not start it after stalling it in the parking lot. I showed him and the the owner the trick, and Viola, it started.

Funny, not one Sherco need this 5 sec to restart after a stall/puke the motor. There are three in our riding group. Also never needed to pull the high idle knob or crack the throttle on a KTM FI base bike. We have several KTM base FI bikes in our riding group none seem to have a problem restarting. Many can't ride so stalling/puking happens a lot on a ride. Seems you have many weird things going on with all your bikes. Might want to get another mechanic.

 

My vote is a tip over or kick stand sensor if these RS models come with them. Next would be loose battery terminal.

Edited July 27, 2017 by weantright

[Piney Woods]

15 hours ago, THE KRAN said:

 

You don't have a BETA. Why do you continue to Troll and ridicule those trying to help.

 

Zero ridicule in my post. Way too sensitive old man. You go to great lengths to set your bikes up for your needs and often find little things others may not encounter. I like all bikes and learn info from all brands. I find the Beta group very informative and some quite entertaining. I will continue.

[MotoXImage]

I've never heard of a passive reset until I read this thread. When is it needed and how is it performed?  BTW, I'm a 2017 Husky FE rider if that makes a difference. Thanks

[GP]

I've seen this on my buddy's 350RR.  Hot day, big get off, bike upside down for a few min, bitch to start.   Also pop stalls a lot and slow to start.  He also has a big tank, close to the rads and closer to the motor/pipe, and I can feel the fuel boiling slightly touching the tank.  I suspect its a vapor lock issue on this bike, it does not start well once hot.  I think firfighters bike has a stock tank.  Another 350RR I saw with a stock tank, no problem.

[Raging Petunia]

16 hours ago, firffighter said:

Yes, it's completely true. Beta's cannot be raced and you need to let the bike sit for 5 seconds each time you set out, thus falling fast behind your competitors only to eventually DQ because you chose to ride a Beta ?

I have to wait 5 seconds, sing and Italian ballad, and sacrifice a small goat. Then mine starts right up. KTM is the same right? 

[MotoXImage]

Just now, newk75 said:

I have to wait 5 seconds, sing and Italian ballad, and sacrifice a small goat. Then mine starts right up. KTM is the same right? 

Good thing your a great Italian singer. 

[basalt]

Didn't read every post cause I'm lazy, but remove your charcoal canister if you have not.

[kawagumby]

6 hours ago, GP said:

I've seen this on my buddy's 350RR.  Hot day, big get off, bike upside down for a few min, bitch to start.   Also pop stalls a lot and slow to start.  He also has a big tank, close to the rads and closer to the motor/pipe, and I can feel the fuel boiling slightly touching the tank.  I suspect its a vapor lock issue on this bike, it does not start well once hot.  I think firfighters bike has a stock tank.  Another 350RR I saw with a stock tank, no problem.

You might be right, the problem seemed to begin after the larger tank was installed. Mebbe I can shield the fuel lines/tank if that turns out to be the case.  All the symptoms point to a fueling issue, including the fact that the bike gradually returns to running normally after about 10-15 minutes riding on open trails as the fuel system would cool.  I only wonder why it takes a crash to bring it to the point of not starting...but mebbe the fuel pump loses its prime in a crash, and then can't pick up the fuel efficiently due to fuel vaporizing and air in the lines. It does make sense. Thanks for the heads up.

Edited July 27, 2017 by kawagumby

[MotoXImage]

1 hour ago, kawagumby said:

You might be right, the problem seemed to begin after the larger tank was installed. Mebbe I can shield the fuel lines/tank if that turns out to be the case.  All the symptoms point to a fueling issue, including the fact that the bike gradually returns to running normally after about 10-15 minutes riding on open trails as the fuel system would cool.  I only wonder why it takes a crash to bring it to the point of not starting...but mebbe the fuel pump loses its prime in a crash, and then can't pick up the fuel efficiently due to fuel vaporizing and air in the lines. It does make sense. Thanks for the heads up.

All the more reason to remove the thermostat. 

[GP]

Try the stock tank. My friends bike did not run right, stalled way to easy all day. It seems really tight behind the rads to the tank. Years ago I had a Cannondale 440, EFI bike. Major gas boiling and vapor lock issues riding in the woods. The tank was under the seat, and header under the tank. The fuel bus lines were almost touching the radiator. I ceramic coated the header, insulated the tank and lines and the problem was solved. I don't think your issue is nearly as bad and perhaps some insulation on the tank will do the trick.