Ben500RR-S

Is/are there a seal(s), that, if one were to fail . . .

24 posts in this topic

 . . . that because the engine side is pressurized, would/could cause the motor oil to migrate to the clutch-side?, leaving the motor to starve for oil/lubrication?  

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The engine side is vented to the atmosphere, so no pressure other than from the pump to the oil channels. Why do you ask?

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My bike is at the dealer now.  As soon as I get a diagnosis, I will definitely report back.  

 

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I assume you found a low oil level on the engine side? Did you just do an oil and filter change? The oil will settle after you start the engine once it fills the filter chamber, then you can add more if you wish.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Johnny Depp said:

I assume you found a low oil level on the engine side? Did you just do an oil and filter change? The oil will settle after you start the engine once it fills the filter chamber, then you can add more if you wish.

While it may or may not be a big deal, I want to wait until I find out what the problem/solution is before sharing the entire story as the dealership is involved and they  have assured me that the problem I/we have will be fixed.

No, there was no oil/filter change involved but, the problem/issue was that (somehow, some way, yet to be determined), that there was NO oil left in the engine side.    

I suppose that there has to be a seal or seals that would separate both sides as the ends of the crank needs to be present on both sides/ends.  

 I will PM you now Johnny Depp.  

 

 

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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I had exactly the same problem which could be reproduced. In the end the seal between the two oil compartments was replaced under guarantee at 130 hrs. Problem never returned.

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I had exactly the same problem which could be reproduced. In the end the seal between the two oil compartments was replaced under guarantee at 130 hrs. Problem never returned.

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6 hours ago, Noppy said:

I had exactly the same problem which could be reproduced. In the end the seal between the two oil compartments was replaced under guarantee at 130 hrs. Problem never returned.

When the seal failed, did your engine oil end up in your clutch case?  

Did you/the bike run with no engine oil in it?  

 

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So the question is, do you have any idea how long the bike ran with no engine oil? Did you discover it at the sight glass or when you went to change the oil? How many hours since you could confirm it had oil in it?

 

I peak at the sight glass every time I ride, but the clutch side really only gets checked when I change it.

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I was very lucky and found 0.3 liters very contaminated oil in the sump. The gear oil was due and I was puzzled to find 1.5L in it. That made me curious to peek into the sight glass and couldnt see anything. The dealer denied it was possible, but later on fixed it without complaining, even without it being covered by Beta warranty.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Noppy said:

I was very lucky and found 0.3 liters very contaminated oil in the sump. The gear oil was due and I was puzzled to find 1.5L in it. That made me curious to peek into the sight glass and couldnt see anything. The dealer denied it was possible, but later on fixed it without complaining, even without it being covered by Beta warranty.

Noppy, I would have a hard time believing it myself, until it would have happened to me.   That you did mention it back in a thread, on 05/09 , that you had a seal fail, causing the problem, in a bad way, I'm glad I'm not the only one that it has now happened to.   I might be #2 but there are not many bikes out there and it has to be a very rare thing to happen.  I'm still waiting as any parts that might be needed to repair my motor could take time to come in.  My fingers are crossed on  a positive turnaround as I hate being without the bike.  

 

basalt, I estimate maybe 4-5 miles with no oil in the engine-side sump.  

 

It has to be one of the only negatives from having the two sumps separated.  Good you got it fixed Noppy.  

 

It is hard, if a seal fails, and oil is diverted out of the engine sump, how is one supposed to ever know that it has happened until symptoms like stalling or backfiring occur?  

Motor vehicles have warning lights, computer interventions for low/no oil pressure and my truck has a dedicated oil pressure analog gauge and if I want, I can program a digital readout to be displayed as well, but for the Beta, no such thing exists.  

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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The seal is accessible through the clutch side, max 2 hrs work. No need to split the cases... good luck with your claim man!

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11 hours ago, Noppy said:

The seal is accessible through the clutch side, max 2 hrs work. No need to split the cases... good luck with your claim man!

Thanks for that information Noppy.  

 

I had dropped my bike off on Monday and have not heard anything about it since.  I will call today sometime to see if they can tell me anything.  

It sure is not fun not having the bike at all.  (boo-hoo, woe is me)

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21 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

It is hard, if a seal fails, and oil is diverted out of the engine sump, how is one supposed to ever know that it has happened until symptoms like stalling or backfiring occur?  

 

Were you having these symptoms? 4-5 miles doesn't seem like long. Hopefully the symptoms were from an overfilled clutch side (breather?), rather than lack of lube in the tranny side!

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Posted (edited)

30 minutes ago, basalt said:

Were you having these symptoms? 4-5 miles doesn't seem like long. Hopefully the symptoms were from an overfilled clutch side (breather?), rather than lack of lube in the tranny side!

Basalt, just for the sake of discussion, which would you think would be worse for the bike;  No oil in the engine side?, or, no oil in the clutch/tranny side?  

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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No oil in engine side is far more destructive, because the big end bearings will mean splitting the cases: mucho labor!

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I agree, no oil in the engine side=no esta' bien.  

 

I called the dealership not long ago, still no update on anything.  

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I agree, I'm just hoping for you that the symptoms showed early enough that things were still lubed, even if very little oil remained in the case. I would guess that the symptoms were from an overfilled clutch side, rather than damage to the transmission side.

 

A friend is just starting to tear down their bottom end because they had no oil, but they ran a whole MX season and practiced for a year and never changed or checked the oil lol! Bearings started "making a funny noise" but they didn't even do anything about it until the next time when it really started making a funny noise.

 

Live and learn I guess. 

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It happened to be a nice day this past Monday and I had shorts, t-shirt and flip-flops on when I went for a ride to make sure that the bike was running well.   I had even put on some work shoes as I wanted to kickstart the bike to make sure that the kickstarter was fixed-it was as it recoiled just fine, and it took me 5 kicks to get the bike to fire=nice.  

Because I was not "armored-up", I was taking it easy for the 4-5 miles I had ridden.  It was the few times when I went to wick-it up a bit was when the clutch would slip from 4,000, right up to 8,000 rpm, and after about 3-4 times testing the clutch, and having it slip, I had decided it was time to make it home as I was about a mile away from my house-this was all street riding.  

On the way home, while the engine temps were not too high at all, the bike was stalling at intersections/stops and under deceleration.  It was also backfiring-not good symptoms at all.  Backfiring from what?, I wonder?  Engine oil blowing by the ring(s)?  Fouling the plug?  Engine rings worn and cylinder scored?  My poor motor.  

 

I can't imagine an entire season with no oil in a gearbox, wow!  Stuff happens though.  

I'm at least under warranty and I'm thankful for that and thankful that the RR-S warranty is one year and not 6 months as I would have been out of warranty otherwise.  

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Hopefully the resolution stays, a resolution.  

Got the bike back yesterday morning.  Was told that there is no problem with any of the seals in the motor and that, pretty much, there was no problem to be found and that after three different people had ridden the bike, including myself, the clutch is no longer slipping.  

I wondered if the piston ring had worn at all from having been ridden with no oil in the engine-sump.  

 

I forget that I have not shared the story from the start.  Here we go:

 

I had ordered a passenger footpeg kit as part of my BYOB in 12/2016.  I was told that near the delivery date, which was 02/22/2017, that the footpeg kit was on backorder and that when it came in, I could take my bike to the dealer and they would install it-no charge.  As my kickstarter was not recoiling/returning, I figured that I'd have that fixed under warranty (thank goodness for the 1 year RR-S warranty).  Then, I also figured that I'd have them install the steel oil pump gears so I would not have to do it and it would be done and over with for me.  I dropped the bike off right before I was leaving for a 2 week vacation.  

When I got the bike back, (in hindsight, I should have ridden the bike around the block just to make sure everything was working well), instead, when I got home and rode it around, the clutch was slipping, going from 4,000 rpm right up to 8,000 rpm with no or very little forward progress made, the clutch was simply slipping.  'Great' I thought, another one of those "Bring it in for one thing, another problem, that was not there, comes up."  I think that maybe too much oil was put in the tranny.  I go to drain it out and it comes out red.  At the time I didn't realize that the red oil is the Motul 7100, then when I took the clutch cover off just to take a peek at it, when I tilted the bike, green oil came out, the Motul Transoil.  

At this point, I'm giving a huge WTF???  How can the red motor oil, then the green xmission  oil.  I look in the oil sight glass and see there is no oil in it.  Shock and disbelief at what is happening is taking over fast.  'Did the tech drain the engine oil, then by mistake put it into the gearbox?, and not refill the engine sump?'  I also realize that I had ridden the bike for 4-5 miles with NO oil in the engine side.  The bike had been stalling and backfiring but firing up to get me the 1 to 1.5 miles I had ridden away from my house.  

Not panicking, I get home, put in 750cc of the Motul 7100 in the motor and 750cc of the Motul Transoil in the gearcase.  Clutch is still slipping=no joy.  

Described what happened to the dealer(Thankfully, everyone in the dealership is awesome), and finally, yesterday, they could find no issues with any of the seals or the clutch.  There is no stalling or backfiring and the clutch is no longer slipping.  There is oil in the sight glass and when I went to kickstart the bike, I realize that I have full compression using my right leg as the compression guage as the motor is as hard to kickover as ever before and running through the gears, I have all the power and hookup on the street I used to have.  Phew.  

I was having visions of trading the bike in for a new 17 or 18 KTM 500 EXC or even a 18 Beta 500 RR-S BYOB but with the steel gears already installed.  

In a big way, I'm glad I waited to have the passenger footpegs installed as when I was new to the bike, it had been laid down or dropped a number of times and one of the subframe uprights was bent and had the entire subframe cocked over to one side so when one viewed the license plate, it was angled and just didn't look good at all.  I have also taken the passenger footpegs off as they are easy enough to put on, 2 allen bolts per side and they are on and off in a couple of minutes.  I will leave them in my gearbag should I ever need them.  I really just got them so in case anyone I'm riding with needs a ride out of the woods, I can give them a ride and they can have someplace to put their feet, or if the wife ever wants to go for a short ride, I can take her as she does like riding but only on the sub 40 mph roads and the RR-S is not exactly a 2-up bike at all with the short, thin seat, it really is for emergencies only and I sometimes wonder if I should have gotten the kit at all but for about $180, it is not a bad thing to have.  They also weigh a bit as the small triangle frame is made of steel and has to be strong enough to take the weight of a passenger so for now, I'll leave them in a bag with the bolts and spacers taped up and in place, along with the long l-shaped allen wrench to install them in case I ever need them.  

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