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Understanding DRZ Camshaft Profiles

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Hi,

Anyone on the forum, or can be referred too, that is an experience engine builder with extensive experience on this DRZ motor? Someone that has built multiple motors and fully understands camshaft profiles? Calling Hot Cams is useless. I have yet to call Webb. I know they are are good. They have done cams for me in the past. I just have a bunch of questions on what I can get away with without head modifications. Using parts off an E or e3 model. I've been digging around and found some info. Can cams from an LTZ400Z be used? Whats the profile? Are the e3 model cams from the 400e a direct bolt in? Springs OK? Decompression still active. I have a bunch of questions. 

If anyone can help, Id certainly appreciate it.

Thanks!

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Im not an engine builder but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. The Z cams have the same lift and duration as the S cams. They all interchange, the original E cams have the most lift and duration. The bikes have dual valve springs , while the quad has 1. The quad engine builds switch to the DRZ springs which I've read can support to around .420" lift. Problems arise if you increase the rev ceiling much beyond 10.5 k as the stock steel 2 piece valves begin to pop their heads off.(There are aftermarket solutions)

 

The 2000 DRZ400 was a great bike that expired on the vine thanks to Yamaha and the YZ400F and subsequently the WR400F, (although performance between the 2 is comparable). The quad on the other hand had a very successful professional MX career and still has success on the local level even against the 450's.

 

If you look over on Suzuki Central you will find far more information on cams, engine builds, and what the engine can and cannot do.

 

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Ill take a look. The piston appears to be the same on ALL DRZ400's. The head has a different part number on 2001 to 2007 (e3) bikes. Is that were the increase in compression comes from? If I buy a 12.2:1 piston, its going to have a different ratio if it gets installed in an e3 motor as opposed to a non E motor? Wiseco really couldn't answer that question. This really troubles me. I need to know. Did the piston manufacturer determine "squish" with the e3 head or any other head? LTZ400Z has a different part number head.

Cams. e3 cams. Where can a get the cam card/profile? How are they different from Hot cams current line up and there predecessors? Are people just installing the e3 cams in the non e3 motors without issues? Is the e3 cam better than the Hot Cams S2?  I am not looking for big numbers. I'm looking for driveability. I want a power increase from idle up. Again, not concerned with big numbers. That's a result of properly matching components. I don't ride offroad at all. I want the bike to pull with throttle in ANY position. This is all cam timing. So, when you look at the cam card, you don't want the lobe centers spread to far. I may call Web on Monday.

Thanks again!

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im not a drz engine builder but have built lots of hotrod motors ...you wont get a power increase from idle up unless you simply find a cam with near S profiles and higher lift combined with an increased compression ratio, then if you could get a custom higher lift cam you would want matching springs to go with it  .. most of the performance cams are designed to take advantage of rpm to make more power higher up .. really, focusing on cam is not where its at in engine building for normal everyday use ... get a responsive carb, up the CC's, to some extent you will get gains by raising compression ratio, which to the greater extent is controlled by the gasket 'stack' on the drz i do believe, but then you'll definitely want good gas all the time and tailoring the ignition advance would be very beneficial ... you could stroke it to .. again, i think focusing on cam unless your geared low or racing isnt going to give you much ..

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23 hours ago, 9SecVmax said:

Hi,

Anyone on the forum, or can be referred too, that is an experience engine builder with extensive experience on this DRZ motor? Someone that has built multiple motors and fully understands camshaft profiles? Calling Hot Cams is useless. I have yet to call Webb. I know they are are good. They have done cams for me in the past. I just have a bunch of questions on what I can get away with without head modifications. Using parts off an E or e3 model. I've been digging around and found some info. Can cams from an LTZ400Z be used? Whats the profile? Are the e3 model cams from the 400e a direct bolt in? Springs OK? Decompression still active. I have a bunch of questions. 

If anyone can help, Id certainly appreciate it.

Thanks!

One does not understand cam theory by assembling motors. Cam theory is learned by reading publications written by race engineers regarding cam theory, fluid dynamics, pumping pressure vs overlap and duration, etc, etc. If your looking for an 'experienced' engine builder, stick with someone who is not soliciting you to send money and engine parts to a Paypal account. Read everything you can posted by CFM Motorsports over on Suzuki Central. :thumbsup:

Anyway, no, yes, maybe, I wouldn't, why, and yes. No.

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Maybe I titled this thread incorrectly. It's not engine theory I'm after. I've ready done my fair share in the past 30 years. I'm looking for specifics on this motor. I know how cam profiles are decoded. I've degree'd cams before. Not what I'm asking. Its specifics about the parts of this motor. I cannot seem to find the answers I'm looking for. Wiseco couldn't answer. The head must be different in the E model because the piston part number is the same for all models and years. So, you cant confirm what the compression with be in an E motor as apposed to a S motor when using what they call a stock 12.2:1 piston. Well, I believe the SM is 11.3:1 stock. So, until I find out the specs, I'm not bending any valves. Where can I find the cam card/specs for the "e3" cams so that I can compare to Hot Cams/Web. Based upon these spec's, then I can properly pick the right parts for the outcome I'm shooting for. Any engine builder needs these specs. Right? You cant just buy random parts off a shelf and expect the motor to make high power. Looking for cam specs, head chamber size for e3 and S (cc's). Ports any different? Piston squish is a fixed area set by the piston manufacturer. So, when a manufacture designed the piston, what head was in the motor they used? Is it an average? So, there 12.2:1 piston would be the same in an e3 head but 11.3 in an S head. So, I would be wasting my money. Im going to call JE. Ive always used there pistons. Maybe they can answer my questions. Has anyone put together this motor with a different piston and cams? How/why did you select the parts that you installed?

Anyone have good pictures of a stock piston, 12.2:1 piston and maybe a 13.5:1. You will be able to see what is different. Anyone have lift, duration, Open/Close timing of the e3 cams?

Thanks!   

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6 minutes ago, 9SecVmax said:

Maybe I titled this thread incorrectly. It's not engine theory I'm after. I've ready done my fair share in the past 30 years. I'm looking for specifics on this motor. I know how cam profiles are decoded. I've degree'd cams before.

Thanks!   

Doesn't sound like I can be any help then, sorry. ;)

Quote

The head must be different in the E model because the piston part number is the same for all models and years.

Must be. I'll go look at the two in my garage and see if I can find any differences. :D

Edited by Bermudacat

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The difference in the heads is the older units and quad have a shoulder bolt that catches the timing chain from falling when the cams are removed.

The compression is different because of the base gaskets. E has a single layer. The z and s/sm have a laminated 3 layer gasket.

More than a few of us have Web's

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Maybe I titled this thread incorrectly. It's not engine theory I'm after. I've ready done my fair share in the past 30 years. I'm looking for specifics on this motor. I know how cam profiles are decoded. I've degree'd cams before. Not what I'm asking. Its specifics about the parts of this motor. I cannot seem to find the answers I'm looking for. Wiseco couldn't answer. The head must be different in the E model because the piston part number is the same for all models and years. So, you cant confirm what the compression with be in an E motor as apposed to a S motor when using what they call a stock 12.2:1 piston. Well, I believe the SM is 11.3:1 stock. So, until I find out the specs, I'm not bending any valves. Where can I find the cam card/specs for the "e3" cams so that I can compare to Hot Cams/Web. Based upon these spec's, then I can properly pick the right parts for the outcome I'm shooting for. Any engine builder needs these specs. Right? You cant just buy random parts off a shelf and expect the motor to make high power. Looking for cam specs, head chamber size for e3 and S (cc's). Ports any different? Piston squish is a fixed area set by the piston manufacturer. So, when a manufacture designed the piston, what head was in the motor they used? Is it an average? So, there 12.2:1 piston would be the same in an e3 head but 11.3 in an S head. So, I would be wasting my money. Im going to call JE. Ive always used there pistons. Maybe they can answer my questions. Has anyone put together this motor with a different piston and cams? How/why did you select the parts that you installed?
Anyone have good pictures of a stock piston, 12.2:1 piston and maybe a 13.5:1. You will be able to see what is different. Anyone have lift, duration, Open/Close timing of the e3 cams?
Thanks!   

Screenshot_20170812-184718.png

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You lost me on the E3 term.  DRZ400EK3 (2003) is what you mean?  The motorcycle heads are all the same for combustion chamber volume.  E heads and kick start heads are machined for a manual compression release.  S/SM heads are not. Early heads had the cam chain catch bolt. (probably really there for sound damping). Compression ratio difference is the thickness of the base gasket.  I don't know anything about the quad heads.

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16 minutes ago, ohiodrz400sm said:

The difference in the heads is the older units and quad have a shoulder bolt that catches the timing chain from falling when the cams are removed.

The compression is different because of the base gaskets. E has a single layer. The z and s/sm have a laminated 3 layer gasket.

More than a few of us have Web's

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using ThumperTalk mobile app
 

AHHHHH, that's the stuff I'm looking for. Now it makes more sense. So, I can just replace my base gasket and be over 12:1 with no issues with piston to valve clearance? No reason to change piston unless I over bore? 

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AHHHHH, that's the stuff I'm looking for. Now it makes more sense. So, I can just replace my base gasket and be over 12:1 with no issues with piston to valve clearance? No reason to change piston unless I over bore? 

Correct. The gasket is the reason for the compression difference.
I haven't heard of any clearance issues with any of the off the self cams either.



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22 hours ago, Noble said:

You lost me on the E3 term.  DRZ400EK3 (2003) is what you mean?  The motorcycle heads are all the same for combustion chamber volume.  E heads and kick start heads are machined for a manual compression release.  S/SM heads are not. Early heads had the cam chain catch bolt. (probably really there for sound damping). Compression ratio difference is the thickness of the base gasket.  I don't know anything about the quad heads.

Again, Thank you for this info! I'm digging still into all the part numbers. E3 is US model. E33 is Caleefornia. I'm comparing numbers and I see the even the E model bikes E33 CA had the same cams as my 2017 SM. Its the NON CA E bikes that have the better cams. Right? If I decide to go the E route, do I just order the -29F00 and -29F01? Regular cams are -29F10 and -29F21. Going to look over all the cam spec first though. Did you mention what Web cams you are running? 

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22 hours ago, ohiodrz400sm said:


Screenshot_20170812-184718.png

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Any way you could send/post a higher resolution? Tried to blow it up so that I can read it and resolution just craps out. Thanks!

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53 minutes ago, ohiodrz400sm said:

Looking at the AB cams, the duration contradicts what I've read elsewhere.

 

I've noticed that too. Seems the 'A' cam has differing duration stated elsewhere. Question then becomes does the 'A' intake only have the same duration as the 'D' intake? 'B' exhaust has a bunch of duration, so would that make up for the 'A's lack?

I am inclined to believe the DRZ Forums chart, and the 'A' does have about 240deg actual. IIRC, it's reported at about 225 elsewhere.

 

 

 

DRZ-cams.gif

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I've been looking at these numbers on and off today. I'm not convinced the Hot Cams are any good. They really changed there profiles and made them quite mild. What do you guys like and have used successfully? For now, I'm going to get a set of cams and do the base gasket. After the warranty runs out, then Ill call Millenium and find a FCR carb. Again, I street ride aggressively. I bought the bike for the twisties. It will never go off road. Put a 39T rear sprocket on yesterday. Its just enough to stop the winding cruising around about 65. Don't notice an acceleration drop much at all unless its 90 degrees out and 99% humidity...

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