Interesting interview on air forks and springs , I think it sums up the current situation well

[mog]

http://motocross.transworld.net/videos/enzos-ross-maeda-air-spring/?sm_id=organic_fb_social_MTCRS_170811_sf105403104#U6vkrEW7YEYz0dpR.97#sf105403104

 

winning by 4:1 lol

 

 

[lowmass]

yep

The things that stood out the most to me was the coments on how "air is a fundamentally different spring" and how some riders seem sensative to this. Even at the factory level were things can be tuned to a higher degree there were those who never seem to come to terms with air.

As he said air in theory has some advantages BUT....

[spin05]

Yea i dont know. There saying the ones that just came out on the huskies are pretty dam awsome. Never tried em

[lowmass]

One of the reasons the air fork got so complex in some models is because of an attempt to mimic the "linear spring" action of a coil spring.

Sometimes a  "technology"  is given up on before it is refined or before a more efficient design is invented. Market pressure can stall development.

In an attempt to mimic linear spring we see multi chamber forks that added a level of complexity to something  few ever figured out how to deal with and most really dont want to deal with.

People are often wowed by complexity. We can be easily impressed by those with the brain power to organize the complex. What many dont realize is that in the engineering and design world simply throwing complexity at a design is the easy rout. Not easy in terms of work done but easy in the sense that we often use complexity because we have yet to invent a better way. Complexity may get the job done BUT genius ( or perhaps more often stumbling onto a good idea ? ), will find a better way. 

Through this latest experiment the AER came out as a simple, easy to use, and effective design that apparently works well and may be around a while. I hope they continue development and refinement of this basic design before its all given up on.

 

 

[mog]

The 18 SX 250 and TC 125 have probably the best STD suspension I have ridden , I have not rode a 18 sxf to compare , they felt as good as any STD SSS imo , maybe better

The truth is air is very good for Mx suspension at the top level , a large portion of works forks are air , for the average rider ? Like power valves , if you don't look after them they will fail , maybe it's too much for a average racer , I still think each company should offer a spring conversion free with a new bike , problem solved

winning by 4:1 lol

[redrider144]

44 minutes ago, mog said:

The 18 SX 250 and TC 125 have probably the best STD suspension I have ridden , I have not rode a 18 sxf to compare , they felt as good as any STD SSS imo , maybe better

The truth is air is very good for Mx suspension at the top level , a large portion of works forks are air , for the average rider ? Like power valves , if you don't look after them they will fail , maybe it's too much for a average racer , I still think each company should offer a spring conversion free with a new bike , problem solved

winning by 4:1 lol
 

I need you to come do maintenance on my AER forks.

[Creeature]

49 minutes ago, mog said:

The 18 SX 250 and TC 125 have probably the best STD suspension I have ridden , I have not rode a 18 sxf to compare , they felt as good as any STD SSS imo , maybe better

The truth is air is very good for Mx suspension at the top level , a large portion of works forks are air , for the average rider ? Like power valves , if you don't look after them they will fail , maybe it's too much for a average racer , I still think each company should offer a spring conversion free with a new bike , problem solved

winning by 4:1 lol
 

Oh really? Is that why none of the pros are using them?

[mog]

I need you to come do maintenance on my AER forks.

Super easy honestly

winning by 4:1 lol

[mog]

Oh really? Is that why none of the pros are using them?

What are you talking about ?I'm talking factory riders running true works bikes , watch the video , I could list the very riders in the last few years but you need to read up

winning by 4:1 lol

[BOAB]

10 minutes ago, mog said:

What are you talking about ?I'm talking factory riders running true works bikes , watch the video , I could list the very riders in the last few years but you need to read up

winning by 4:1 lol
 

The factory made them run them to try to convince that masses that they must be good because Johnny Pro is using them. From everything I've seen they suck.

[Arctic Pride]

The only point that matters is that the push to air was done for cost cutting not because of a better innovation. 

[Creeature]

23 minutes ago, mog said:

What are you talking about ?I'm talking factory riders running true works bikes , watch the video , I could list the very riders in the last few years but you need to read up

winning by 4:1 lol
 

None of the factory Ktm guys are running air forks are they? 

I did watch the video. The only advantages I got out of it was that they are light and cheap. He said some guys never like air spring performance no matter what they do to it.

He knows the pressure increase when they heat up is a big deal or he wouldn't have mentioned it. I bet it does the same with altitude change. WP may hold its pressure better than the jap ones but it's a problem that's still there...

Edited August 14, 2017 by Casing-daily

[mog]

No he actually said the performance of the air fork exceeded the specs of as good as spring but cheaper , I know what he said....the pros don't have to use air , most have the choice , this is the typical bs that gets said over and over , many works riders have taken the same forks with them from brand to brand , roczen is an example , nargle won a gp on works air , Dunn just won the 2stroke gp on revalved STD aer , febvre runs works air on a Yamaha , I could point out the truth and facts over and over , air is not all bad and spring not all good , spring forks change with year maybe as much as air .....that's a fact , the outer chamber heats up with the damping side working hard , let your bleed screw open at the end of a Moto for proof. My aer goes up no more than 5psi , that's small compared to 140psi , spring forks go up to around 5psi in the outer from 0 , that's a big change

winning by 4:1 lol

[lowmass]

yes part of the beauty of the AER is the small proportional increase ( relative to std pressure). 

[redrider144]

25 minutes ago, mog said:

No he actually said the performance of the air fork exceeded the specs of as good as spring but cheaper , I know what he said....the pros don't have to use air , most have the choice , this is the typical bs that gets said over and over , many works riders have taken the same forks with them from brand to brand , roczen is an example , nargle won a gp on works air , Dunn just won the 2stroke gp on revalved STD aer , febvre runs works air on a Yamaha , I could point out the truth and facts over and over , air is not all bad and spring not all good , spring forks change with year maybe as much as air .....that's a fact , the outer chamber heats up with the damping side working hard , let your bleed screw open at the end of a Moto for proof. My aer goes up no more than 5psi , that's small compared to 140psi , spring forks go up to around 5psi in the outer from 0 , that's a big change

winning by 4:1 lol
 

Casing-daily is right and you are wrong.

[daled]

Air springs have been used in machine tools and automation for many many years, and the technology is sound. and yes air density, temperature, moisture etc.. will all have an effect on performance, but should be negligible and tunable.

as far as a pro rider is concerned, I think it would be a matter of preference, whether the performance is actually better or just perceived to be better. but the pros re-build, reset, and retune before each event.

as a weekend racer, or casual rider, the spring for is going to be superior, as they will still function if you blow your seals and even if you loose all your oil. an air fork will just be a collapsed leg if these conditions exist.

so if you are a pro......it's whatever you prefer....if not, spring it baby...

 

[mog]

I believe in pure performance the psf1 is the best fork available , I put one on my ktm in 14 , once valved it can land the hardest jumps with comfort , better than any fork I have experienced ,. But I didn't trust the fork to not loose a seal around some time , the aer and tac do not collapse if the outer fork seals go .

winning by 4:1 lol

[Creeature]

I rode the 14 psf and hated it. I thought it was really bad. True story...

[mog]

The STD 14 psf was terrible , mine wasn't STD , those aer have not done that due to outer seal failure from rocks etc , the 16 17 and 18 have had updates each year to make it more reliable , to judge a fork fairly you have to accept it needs time to refine it , kyb made the psf1 that was terrible , the psf2 that's still terrible , showa make the ssf spring that's terrible ( after 5 years ? ) the SSS is still breaking ICS pistons , ICS springs occasionally break , they unscrew themselves internally , you have to realise no fork is perfect , not the aer , the tac , none so the question is what are the good points and bad points and make a judgement based on overall

Aer has many very good points but has some negatives that cannot be ignored , this is true of any bike or fork

winning by 4:1 lol

[spin05]

Hows the new Showa air fork that just was given to the factorys late this year.  Is anybody actually running them????   I thought PC was running all air on there 250F's