Lightweight Exotic Wheel Weights - Listed here

[xplodee]

Hi All-

In the process of shopping for new lightweight wheels to replace my stock wheels, I've found the weights for the Talon Billet and Carbon series hub as well as with various DID and Excel rims.

Before I post, I'd like to know if someone has a spare front and rear wheel without brake and sprocket mounted to them so that we can get a stock starting weight. Anyone? The more expensive exotic hubs/rims save you about 2lbs total over the less expensive exotic hubs/rims (this is combined weight savings for front plus rear). However I want to know if the savings over the stock wheels/hubs is the same or better. 

[Chuck.]

Most of my weights are with rotor.

Front:
CR85 w/21”Excel rim, w/ rotor,  no axle, no tire  6.39lbs (rotor weights 1.15lbs)
Montesa 4RT, w/ rotor, wo tire tube axle   6.0lbs

Rear:
RM125 ‘89  no axle, w rotor, AL sprocket, 10.64lbs
CRF250X '05, rotor, AL sprkt, spacers, no lock/liner 10.175lbs

I don't have a lot of rotor weights but my rotors are 1.06-1.45lbs depending more on OD and thickness. 2.7mm thick have been the lightest, an aftermarket 3.4mm thick the heaviest.

[jeffrow68]

I have a question regarding 18" rims and installing them on a 230, will the 18 X 2.15 work? Most all the KTM and Honda X wheels are the 2.15 width rim. I did some cross referencing and I think I can use the 230 spacers as bushings to slip into the KTM wheel bearings. This is what S.T.O.D. did to mount Honda X wheels on his 230. The pics he posted detailing this process are no longer available since photobucket blocked them. I don't fully understand what he did to make this work, specifically with the bearing spacer that is inside the hub.

[Chuck.]

5 minutes ago, jeffrow68 said:

I have a question regarding 18" rims and installing them on a 230, will the 18 X 2.15 work? Most all the KTM and Honda X wheels are the 2.15 width rim. I did some cross referencing and I think I can use the 230 spacers as bushings to slip into the KTM wheel bearings. This is what S.T.O.D. did to mount Honda X wheels on his 230. The pics he posted detailing this process are no longer available since photobucket blocked them. I don't fully understand what he did to make this work, specifically with the bearing spacer that is inside the hub.

2.15 is a common rear wheel width, and the rims are stamped with the size and width.

Some bearing sizes that may help deciding if a wheel is usable, or can be converted via a bearing swap:

# …….. ID x OD x TH …. Remarks
6001 ... 12 x 28 x 8
6201 … 12 x 32 x 10 …. CR80/85 Front
16101 .. 12 x 32 x 8
6301 … 12 x 37 x 12 
16002 … 15 x 32 x 8
6002 … 15 x 32 x 9 …. CRF150R/RB Front
6202 … 15 x 35 x 11 … Front;  CRF150/230, all XR250, all XR200R, KDX200
6302      15 x 42 x 13 … XL185S rear
6003 … 17 x 35 x 10 … 89-91 RM125 front, 86 89 CR125, XR400
16003… 17 x 35 x 8 
6203 … 17 x 40 x 12 …. XR200R rear, 90-03 XR250 l side, 81-83 XR200R rt, XR400.
6303 … 17 x 47 x 14 …. 90-03 XR250 rear sprkt side, CRF230F rear, 81-83 XR200R lf
6004 … 20 x 42 x 12 … 315R Front,92 RM, 89 CR250 RR, 90-94 CR250 R 87 CR125,315R/4RT
6204 … 20 x 47 x 14 … 89-91 RM125/250 R, 90-95 XR250 RR, 89 CR250 LR 87 CR125
6904  … 20 x 37 x 9 … CRF250X front
6304 … 20 x 52 x 15 
6006 … 30 x 55 x 13 
6905 … 25 x 42 x 9 …. CRF250/450/R/X rear
 

 

[xplodee]

8 hours ago, Chuck. said:

Most of my weights are with rotor.

Front:
CR85 w/21”Excel rim, w/ rotor,  no axle, no tire  6.39lbs (rotor weights 1.15lbs)

What hub are you using for this wheel? Stock CR85 hub? What size brake rotor? Is this wheel used on a 230F or on a BBR frame? I only ask because that's very light for a 21" wheel from my data collection so far. If you're using a mini-bike hub and brake rotor with your full size rim, that might explain. Thank you,

[Chuck.]

Quote

CR85 w/21”Excel rim, w/ rotor,  no axle, no tire  6.39lbs (rotor weights 1.15lbs)

Quote

What hub are you using for this wheel? Stock CR85 hub? What size brake rotor? Is this wheel used on a 230F or on a BBR frame? I only ask because that's very light for a 21" wheel from my data collection so far. If you're using a mini-bike hub and brake rotor with your full size rim, that might explain. Thank you,

CR85 hub w/ a light weight (per Buchanan) Excel 21" rim, drilled and  laced by Buchanan, with CR85 rotor.  Wheel can be used with 12 or 15mm axle via bearing change. It is on my XR218 with an adapted XR250R caliper and MC. CRF150F is the same hub.

[MetricMuscle]

1 hour ago, Chuck. said:

CR85 hub w/ a light weight (per Buchanan) Excel 21" rim, drilled and  laced by Buchanan, with CR85 rotor.  Wheel can be used with 12 or 15mm axle via bearing change. It is on my XR218 with an adapted XR250R caliper and MC. CRF150F is the same hub.

I was gonna find a moan and groan emoji to express my displeasure in your using such an old and antiquated caliper in an otherwise cutting edge racer spec arrangement but then I Googled what an XR250R caliper looks like and........  How long has Honda used this caliper?  Looks like they have used it on everything offroad they make, just different brackets to fit the application.  This might just be the most common dirtbike caliper on the planet of the Earth!

 

[Chuck.]

There are two versions; one with fins and one without. I used the former because I needed the extra cooling for the fast speeds that I ride when on trails.?

Honda #45101-MG3-006  Caliper used on:
            84-85 XR250
            85 ATC250/350
            84-85 XL350R
            83-84 XR500
            83-87 XL600R
            84 XR350

Since it is a Nissin item it could be used on other bikes, EBC lists these for the same pads

CR 125 R 84-86 F
CR 250 R 84-86 F
XR 250 R Pro Link 84-87 F
XR 350 R 84-85 F
XL 350 R 84-85 F
CR 500 R 84-86 F
XR 500 R Pro Link 83-84 F
XL 600 R 83-87 F
XR 600 R 85-87 F
HONDA ATV
TRX 250 R 86-89 R
ATC 250 R 85-86 F & R
ATC 350 X 85 F

I had some left over parts from a totaled XR250R but one caveat; the Honda pressure cast bracket out gasses during welding which makes it very difficult to weld. Welding requires a person with  experience welding aluminum castings that out gas, and it takes 2-3 times longer to weld. I should have machined a new caliper bracket to adapt the caliper to the Showa Mini forks.
My preference would be to use a newer style caliper like Honda, and others, started using on adult size dirt bikes in 90s.

 

[MetricMuscle]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 0:14 PM, Chuck. said:

I've used most of the brake systems mentioned:

Opposed piston fixed calipers on my Trials bike (made by AJP) and floating calipers on J bikes (1 & 2 piston made by Nissin)

Automotive almost exclusively use floating calipers.

They all work well but you must also consider that what you feel in the lever when riding is also the result of the master cylinder design and the friction of the brake pads because it all about the brake creating torque at the rotor and how that transfers to the tire contact patch. 
Case in point is the mini bike hubs use a 220mm rotor vs 240mm on most other dirt bikes, that means less torque if other things are equal but a lot less force at the tire contact patch if you install a 21" rim/tire.  I had that problem with a CR85 front end on my XR so I made a bracket and used a XR250R front brake and it works good with the 21" front wheel, even with the 220mm rotor. A friend has used single piston and double piston mini bike brakes on his conversions and i've found the brakes more than adequate with a 21" wheel, but not as strong as a caliper from a full size bike. Brake pad material also makes a difference, see later.

The Trials bike with the little 4 piston caliper has brakes with very light lever pull and smooth brake action.

My CRF250X uses the same caliper as most other late Honda dirt bikes. However the lever feel is very light and the brakes are grabby at low speed which can make low traction situations sporty. It is interesting that the Honda pads are large compared to other calipers and use a high friction pad material. DOT requires all brake linings to be coded for  normal and hot friction, here is a good read on "brake edge codes"  http://www.federatedautoparts.com/Docs/TTBulletins/S001E005.pdf and http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

The HH pads have the highest coefficient of friction and are known to be grabby at low speeds; and the CRF250X uses HH pads and I don't like grabby brakes.  EBC sells several different friction  materials for each pad so there are options to adjust brake feel, their descriptions don't always use edge codes but they do describes the friction and recommended applications.  And the EBC pad site: https://ebcbrakes.com/products/brake-type/

Master cylinders make a difference with various piston sizes and leverage ratios. Rebuild kits can provide a clue to piston size.

One other interesting item is Nissin makes two different sizes of pads for use on a several calipers, that offers a method to change braking with a simple pad change.

88-95 XR250R
87-94 CR125/250/500
88-92 XR600R
91-92 XR250L
88-92 XR600R
All of the above use the same pads but the EBC catalog lists a larger pad that also fits:

95-07 CR125/250
96-04 XR250/400R
96-08 RM125/250
03-11 CRF230F
07-11 CRF150F
04-11 CRF250R/X
02-11 CRF450R/X

 

 

 

The caliper I found a pic of for an XR250R looked to be the same as the CRF250/450R/X, CRF230F etc.  So are you saying the older pad will interchange between the early and late calipers but one is bigger than the other? 

[Chuck.]

Yes
EBC lists the late pads as an oversize alternative for the early caliper.
FA125 is the EBC pad for the early caliper and the listing references the FA185 as an oversize option pad.
And the dimensions and diagrams for each are the same except for the friction size.

You should download an EBC catalog, lots of information.

[xplodee]

If i go with a CRF150R mini hub laced to a 21" excel rim, id consider the 220mm "mini" disk combined with a KTM Brembo caliper/master. Anyone know the caliper mount bolt spacing for the KTM Brembo? Its designed for a 260mm rotor, not sure if that would matter. 

[xplodee]

Hey All-

Ok here are the weights for the exotic wheel setup that I'll be going with. I made my decisions based entirely upon weight and not sacrificing any aspects of the bike's current performance. Cost had nothing to do with any of my decisions so this setup is expensive, but there are more expensive options: they just weren't as light.

Front:

• Excel Takasago 21x1.6" rim
• Talon CRF150R "mini" hub
• Talon SS spokes
• 6.3lbs excluding 220mm lightweight rotor

Rear:

• Excel Takasago 18x1.85" rim
• Talon CRF250X Carbon Composite Hub
• Talon SS Spokes
• 8.1lbs total weight (excluding aluminum 50t sprocket and lightweight brake rotor)

I won't know the total weight including rotors and sprocket until I receive them. At that time I'll report back. I'll also report on the analogous stock wheel weight. I plan to adapt a KTM Brembo caliper to the front 220mm rotor. If I'm not satisfied with the braking performance of the 220mm rotor versus the CRF230F's stock 240mm rotor, then I will purchase Galfer's "oversized" rotor adapter set for the CRF150R 

[xplodee]

Ok everyone!!!

I finally have the front wheel from Dubya. I mounted the exact same front tire as on my stock wheel (MotoZ Mountain Hybrid 100/80-21) and Tubliss system. Total weight savings..... 1.5lbs. Not bad- I'll take it.

However, I haven't installed the CRF150R single piston caliper on it yet. That means I still have the stock caliper along with Rieger's adapter mounted on the forks. I have ordered both a 150R single piston caliper to try out with my master cylinder, as well as an adapter that will adapt the CRF230F brake caliper to the CRF150R 220mm rotor. We'll see which works better. My guess is since I'm running the CRF230F master cylinder that the single piston 150R caliper will actually work quite nicely and save me a ton of weight. We'll see!

Will update this thread when the rear wheel comes in.

Total price: $500/lb weight savings. Super expensive, ridiculously so. But I don't care because this is my all just a hobby for me. The new setup looks awesome and should be stronger too. hahaha

 

Untitled by Tim Marks, on Flickr

 

 

Untitled by Tim Marks, on Flickr

Edited September 9, 2017 by xplodee

[adnohguy]

Ok everyone!!!
I finally have the front wheel from Dubya. I mounted the exact same front tire as on my stock wheel (MotoZ Mountain Hybrid 100/80-21) and Tubliss system. Total weight savings..... 1.5lbs. Not bad- I'll take it.
However, I haven't installed the CRF150R single piston caliper on it yet. That means I still have the stock caliper along with Rieger's adapter mounted on the forks. I have ordered both a 150R single piston caliper to try out with my master cylinder, as well as an adapter that will adapt the CRF230F brake caliper to the CRF150R 220mm rotor. We'll see which works better. My guess is since I'm running the CRF230F master cylinder that the single piston 150R caliper will actually work quite nicely and save me a ton of weight. We'll see!
Will update this thread when the rear wheel comes in.
Total price: $500/lb weight savings. Super expensive, ridiculously so. But I don't care because this is my all just a hobby for me. The new setup looks awesome and should be stronger too. hahaha
 
Untitled by Tim Marks, on Flickr
 
 
Untitled by Tim Marks, on Flickr

Well if $$$ is not a problem then let's see some carbon fiber and some Titanium components...
get-er-done.

[xplodee]

Working on it. Rear hub is the Talon carbon composite style (arrives next month). I think that the rear wheel conversion with lightweight caliper (12oz) will save a couple pounds over the stock setup. This includes an aluminum sprocket vs stock steel etc. 

Im going to buy some titanium fasteners and machine titanium axles and other major weight parts later on. Aluminum fasteners for non-critical parts will be easy to machine as well. 

I kinda want to strip the bike this winter and  paint the frame and swingarm black. will look cool. I havent modded on a bike like this since my old Honda Hawk GT racebike about ten years ago.

 

[Doogee57]

   Did anyone say Hawk GT?  ?  My little brother has 2. He's 3 yrs. retired after 20 yrs. in the Air Force. I've been a machinist for 35 yrs. He's always hitting me up for "favors". His hawks a fairly trick too. But then,,, that all belongs on another site and forum. Doesn't it?  ?

 

[xplodee]

3 minutes ago, Doogee57 said:

   Did anyone say Hawk GT?  ?  My little brother has 2. He's 3 yrs. retired after 20 yrs. in the Air Force. I've been a machinist for 35 yrs. He's always hitting me up for "favors". His hawks a fairly trick too. But then,,, that all belongs on another site and forum. Doesn't it?  ?

 

PM me if you ever want to chat about it. I used to frequent the other site a ton and even won HoTM. Ended up selling my hawk racebike to a guy who is hanging it in a restaurant in MD. 

[mx4god]

Did your rear hub come in?

[xplodee]

On 10/14/2017 at 9:21 PM, mx4god said:

Did your rear hub come in?

Nope, not yet! I will have to perform the rear swing arm modification for the disk brake and I figure I might as well replace the bearings in the back end as well while I'm doing it so it could take into winter before it's installed. I'll get weights as soon as I can though.

[adnohguy]

I just found all of these aluminum bolts when I was looking for other parts..., forgot that I had them, will make good use of them soon.