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2T Fuel Injection 2019?

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I guess many of us on here will have read the first reports back from journos at the Erzberg launch of the 2018 KTM Exc 2 strokes, complete with transfer port fuel injection.  Every report raving about how smooth and fuel efficient the new bikes are.  Beta will surely be following down the same path soon, but will this be 2019 ?  If not, it risks losing quite a few sales to KTM.  It might be a wise move to have let KTM jump first and see how the new Exc bikes perform in the real world in the hands of day-to-day owners.  Perhaps KTM has produced a beauty but there is also the possibility that it has got it wrong, as many owners of the 690R Enduro bikes have found out to their cost.  Personally I'm not really partisan or very brand loyal.  I own a Beta -   I recommend them to others and I love it, but I would migrate to KTM if it offered exactly what I am after.  Does anyone know if the factory plans to introduce TPI or some form of Direct Injection in 2019?  I'm a potential buyer, but for now KTM has stolen a march on our favourite Italians...

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I'm planning on buying a Beta XT late 2018.  If they did go to EFI, I'd wait to get one. If KTM adds oil injection, I could go either way.

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6 hours ago, daveuprite said:

I guess many of us on here will have read the first reports back from journos at the Erzberg launch of the 2018 KTM Exc 2 strokes, complete with transfer port fuel injection.  Every report raving about how smooth and fuel efficient the new bikes are.  Beta will surely be following down the same path soon, but will this be 2019 ?  If not, it risks losing quite a few sales to KTM.  It might be a wise move to have let KTM jump first and see how the new Exc bikes perform in the real world in the hands of day-to-day owners.  Perhaps KTM has produced a beauty but there is also the possibility that it has got it wrong, as many owners of the 690R Enduro bikes have found out to their cost.  Personally I'm not really partisan or very brand loyal.  I own a Beta -   I recommend them to others and I love it, but I would migrate to KTM if it offered exactly what I am after.  Does anyone know if the factory plans to introduce TPI or some form of Direct Injection in 2019?  I'm a potential buyer, but for now KTM has stolen a march on our favourite Italians...

Ridiculous. FI alone is no reason to jump brands. 

KTM is still in market testing over this product, and there has not even been a real review of the two stroke FI yet.  The new model is not even in full production, and only a limited number are being imported to the US.  I would also bet that no racer would prefer it, do to the reduction in agressive power output that has been reported so far.

Pure speculation and rumor mongering. 

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Beta appears to have found a way to pass Euro 4 emissions without the need to go to FI and seems to be rewarded with a better power delivery and lower cost so far. FI on 2t's has turned out to be all about emissions, not power.

When the Euro 5 emissions become required, (2020) that may force their hand. I wouldn't expect it before then. Many, including myself, thought that FI 2-strokes was some kind of holy grail of newfound power, but that has not so far proven to be the case. Several of the Erzberg testers complained of lack of low end and peaky power delivery, I'm sure as time goes on mapping will get them where they need to be. The Beta is one of the first to go to dual injectors on their 4 stroke RR and Race edition lineup, and I would expect that is how they would handle 2 strokes also when the time comes. Many teams run factory throttle bodies that have the injector moved to the bottom for more effective atomization at low rpm's, and I expect more to follow that route as well.

Sherco has one ready to go as well, and are holding back until they must do it to sell them in the Euro markets.

http://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-motorcycles-emissions/

 

 

Edited by Johnny Depp
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Yeah Beta stole the march on KTM by fitting oil injection a while back (although as we all know it's been available on other 2 strokes for about 35 years!) but KTM has now brought forward its transfer port injection together with autolube, doing away with a carb/jetting etc.   Initial results from KTM's own testing and journalists testing at Erzberg suggests a much more fuel efficient combustion, requiring less 2t oil consumption, leading to a cleaner burn and up to 30% better gas mileage.  Map-able / custom tuneable too, and immune to altitude changes of course.  It's the future of 2 strokes, obviously, until they are permanently replaced by electric bikes, and I'm really keen to have a go on the 2018 KTM as soon as I can get a test.  I just hope that Beta, whose bikes I am presently in love with, pull out the stops to get a fuel injected 2t off the production line asap, because I expect Beta to make much the same product but easier and better to ride.

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5 minutes ago, daveuprite said:

Yeah Beta stole the march on KTM by fitting oil injection a while back (although as we all know it's been available on other 2 strokes for about 35 years!) but KTM has now brought forward its transfer port injection together with autolube, doing away with a carb/jetting etc.   Initial results from KTM's own testing and journalists testing at Erzberg suggests a much more fuel efficient combustion, requiring less 2t oil consumption, leading to a cleaner burn and up to 30% better gas mileage.  Map-able / custom tuneable too, and immune to altitude changes of course.  It's the future of 2 strokes, obviously, until they are permanently replaced by electric bikes, and I'm really keen to have a go on the 2018 KTM as soon as I can get a test.  I just hope that Beta, whose bikes I am presently in love with, pull out the stops to get a fuel injected 2t off the production line asap, because I expect Beta to make much the same product but easier and better to ride.

KTM has gone 1st, in a limited way. It is a guinea pig for now. I updated my previous post, E5 doesn't take effect until bikes manufactured in 2020 so I don't expect many others to make a change until then.

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KTM-300-EXC-TPI-2-stroke-fuel-injected-e

 

KTM-TPI-engine-L-cut-away.jpg

Two-Stroke Fuel Injection: KTM’s Path To TPI

Almost 14 Years In The Making And It Is Just The Beginning.

https://dirtbiketest.com/fresh-dirt/two-stroke-fuel-injection-ktms-path-to-tpi/#sDdGwhefw35ZtUY4.97

A great read on the subject above.

To be an early adopter of this technology, you must realize that it is uncertain if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

 

Edited by Johnny Depp
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Plus we'll see how reliable they are as the bikes age, I plan on holding on to my '15 300 for as long as I can, it's very well set up for me and I have no extra worries of breaking down. Personally, as a 50 yr old B rider, I don't think I'm buying a new bike unless there is a significant advancement in technology, and FI and losing 10lbs. isn't it yet. 

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Word is they have had a heap of issues with them. Mate mentioned one of his mates who rode erzberg saw this. He's not sold at all.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using ThumperTalk mobile app
 

Edited by MartyMOOSE
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10 hours ago, DaveCR said:

The KTM is oil injected.

hows you how up to date I am.

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18 hours ago, daveuprite said:

I guess many of us on here will have read the first reports back from journos at the Erzberg launch of the 2018 KTM Exc 2 strokes, complete with transfer port fuel injection.  Every report raving about how smooth and fuel efficient the new bikes are.  Beta will surely be following down the same path soon, but will this be 2019 ?  If not, it risks losing quite a few sales to KTM.  It might be a wise move to have let KTM jump first and see how the new Exc bikes perform in the real world in the hands of day-to-day owners.  Perhaps KTM has produced a beauty but there is also the possibility that it has got it wrong, as many owners of the 690R Enduro bikes have found out to their cost.  Personally I'm not really partisan or very brand loyal.  I own a Beta -   I recommend them to others and I love it, but I would migrate to KTM if it offered exactly what I am after.  Does anyone know if the factory plans to introduce TPI or some form of Direct Injection in 2019?  I'm a potential buyer, but for now KTM has stolen a march on our favourite Italians...

It's jumping the gun right now.  No way would I go to Ktm in this first year seeing if it will work. It may and there also might be some problems. Why should one volunteer to be a guinea pig when Betas work excellent now. So far Beta has knocked it out of the park with every new model they've debuted. 2005 had great rfs motored Betas till 2009.. 2010 all Beta made model 450 and 498, 350 rr, 2 stroke enduro 250/300, xtrainers, and all the systematic upgrades to each model have been good. No big snafoo screw ups at all since 2005 from what I can tell.. Now there's a 125 to see that's new. Looking at Betas history just since 2005 when they've reentered the enduro market has been stellar. That being said Beta is going efi to be compliant with regulations. They've said in the past they like how a carb works and would keep it as long as they could until they have to change. Why should anyone jump into a bike where no one has any clue about reliability and really how good they are . I'd wait a year or 2 and see. Let everyone else trouble shoot the first year. Honestly I don't even like Oil injection. For 2 stroke I'd go a race edition 250 or 300 2t Beta. I'd yank OI for Xtrainer too for that matter. I just eliminate possible problems ahead of time.  Just because something is new doesn't mean it's a better option. Hey I know some like oi . Just my opinion.

 

I waited a year to watch the then new Beta 300rr in 2013. When it was shown to be excellent then I bought one. I think that's a smarter approach with Ktm now... but if you want to jump ship tell us how it goes.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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Lots of TPI KTMs in England now, a few people I know have ridden / own them and most seem to say they are brilliant apart from the 1st 5-10% of the revs the real bottom end pull you get from a well set up 2t is missing so its a great bike apart from that so not ideal for extreme for lugging the bike but great for everything else, runs well as standard and uses less fuel. these are not paid testers they are people who pay for bikes just like the rest of us.

Edited by Lennie
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As most have stated: Beta don't need to be the leaders here, let others have the fun of navigating the learning curve, and only go FI when absolutely necessary. My RR300 is hands down the most fun bike I have ever owned, (except possibly my expansion chambered  1975 Suzi GT550 with rear tyres that lasted about a thousand miles:)). So I reckon Beta are doing just fine they way they are going now. I am sure they will master 2T FI when they have to. But the places I go I want a simple, rugged, reliable 2 wheeler. The the RR300 fits the bill perfectly:)

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I do genuinely understand those that love their carburated bikes and would prefer that the manufacturers left things alone.  I've got one of the last of the carbed Beta 4 strokes (a 2012 450RR) and I love it - it fuels well, it's great to ride and I have no complaints.  

But things move on and they should move on.  I know that a large swathe of bikers have decided '&%$#@! the environment, just give me a nice powerful bike and that's all I care about'  - but personally I don't think like that and I want my bike to be as clean as it possibly can be until eventually we get zero emission bikes that still give us the performance we like so much (we won't have to wait all that long given the amazing progress being made with battery technology these days).   

In the meantime I'm pleased that KTM are taking the initiative and hope that Beta produces a lower pollution 2 stroke as soon as possible.  

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 2:26 AM, daveuprite said:

I guess many of us on here will have read the first reports back from journos at the Erzberg launch of the 2018 KTM Exc 2 strokes, complete with transfer port fuel injection.  Every report raving about how smooth and fuel efficient the new bikes are.  Beta will surely be following down the same path soon, but will this be 2019 ?  If not, it risks losing quite a few sales to KTM.  It might be a wise move to have let KTM jump first and see how the new Exc bikes perform in the real world in the hands of day-to-day owners.  Perhaps KTM has produced a beauty but there is also the possibility that it has got it wrong, as many owners of the 690R Enduro bikes have found out to their cost.  Personally I'm not really partisan or very brand loyal.  I own a Beta -   I recommend them to others and I love it, but I would migrate to KTM if it offered exactly what I am after.  Does anyone know if the factory plans to introduce TPI or some form of Direct Injection in 2019?  I'm a potential buyer, but for now KTM has stolen a march on our favourite Italians...

Owner of Sherco said this same thing,,, "wait to see how the public takes to it". With that said KTM as well as Sherco has had 1,000's of miles on these system in real world but under engineers and test riders. There should be no reason not to have FI nailed. This was not the same as the 4t route.

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2 hours ago, daveuprite said:

I do genuinely understand those that love their carburated bikes and would prefer that the manufacturers left things alone.  I've got one of the last of the carbed Beta 4 strokes (a 2012 450RR) and I love it - it fuels well, it's great to ride and I have no complaints.  

But things move on and they should move on.  I know that a large swathe of bikers have decided '&%$#@! the environment, just give me a nice powerful bike and that's all I care about'  - but personally I don't think like that and I want my bike to be as clean as it possibly can be until eventually we get zero emission bikes that still give us the performance we like so much (we won't have to wait all that long given the amazing progress being made with battery technology these days).   

In the meantime I'm pleased that KTM are taking the initiative and hope that Beta produces a lower pollution 2 stroke as soon as possible.  

I'm far from one of those that says &%$#@! the environment. Maybe it's because I live on a small island.  I just don't think that just because something is new means it's better. Look what happens with efi problems with 4 strokes and you are needing to fix in the trails.    The same is now with the trend to not have a kickstarter now. Weight loss is that excuse. Let the bugs be dealt with. I'm very happy with the bikes I have. Everyone can buy what they like. I'll watch and take notes....and be totally happy until I see something that is worth upgrading. It's not worth it for now. There's nothing out there I'd rather have. I can see the counterbalancer as an upgrade.. but I figure Beta will do that at some time.. even then is it worth me buying a new bike now??? Naaa

Here's another thing. Beta is cranking right now. They raised production 30% or so from the year before so far.  .. and they're selling out. They're finding a need and filling it. Their factory is in max production right now. They aren't a huge company. They're doing ok. 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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Since current models are euro legal until next EURO level, I will be surprised if they offer it before 2021 models.

Surely they have running prototypes, the R&D dyno always working 24/7 ( ok maybe NOT in August) and most probably they will be ready when they need to.....

Edited by dirtbird
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2 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I'm far from one of those that says &%$#@! the environment. Maybe it's because I live on a small island.  I just don't think that just because something is new means it's better. Look what happens with efi problems with 4 strokes and you are needing to fix in the trails.    The same is now with the trend to not have a kickstarter now. Weight loss is that excuse. Let the bugs be dealt with. I'm very happy with the bikes I have. Everyone can buy what they like. I'll watch and take notes....and be totally happy until I see something that is worth upgrading. It's not worth it for now. There's nothing out there I'd rather have. I can see the counterbalancer as an upgrade.. but I figure Beta will do that at some time.. even then is it worth me buying a new bike now??? Naaa

Here's another thing. Beta is cranking right now. They raised production 30% or so from the year before so far.  .. and they're selling out. They're finding a need and filling it. Their factory is in max production right now. They aren't a huge company. They're doing ok. 

If you read the above link to KTM path to FI, you will see that the counterbalancer was a result of their research finding that the sensors and injectors malfunctioned due to vibrations, so similar to oil injection, it was a by product of FI readiness.

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3 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

If you read the above link to KTM path to FI, you will see that the counterbalancer was a result of their research finding that the sensors and injectors malfunctioned due to vibrations, so similar to oil injection, it was a by product of FI readiness.

For how long..we know a carb is reliable either way. Who here is confident buying buying an 18 Beta 300 vs an efi Ktm 300 4 years from now ? Right now what bike are you confident will work well ? It's Beta for me . Others may have a different opinion.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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