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From effectively last to first.....no one really able to challenge the European rider..except another one. (Marvin). Roczen wins last year's out door title. They are obviously doing something right. Even our 250 champ spent time there. The age of the Carmichael's and Ricky Johnson's are long gone. SO whats the deal? Cost of racing pushing it out of the reach of potential talent from the farm & working class and into the spoiled brat class? Land closure? Format? We obviously have lost ground as witness by little signals likes the MXDN over the last few years..Of course on the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. But something to argue about and maybe through recognition in the community move to a better place somehow.

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20 minutes ago, weimedog said:

From effectively last to first.....no one really able to challenge the European rider..except another one. (Marvin). Roczen wins last year's out door title. They are obviously doing something right. Even our 250 champ spent time there. The age of the Carmichael's and Ricky Johnson's are long gone. SO whats the deal? Cost of racing pushing it out of the reach of potential talent from the farm & working class and into the spoiled brat class? Land closure? Format? We obviously have lost ground as witness by little signals likes the MXDN over the last few years..Of course on the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. But something to argue about and maybe through recognition in the community move to a better place somehow.

The cause is the pussification US males due to liberalism.

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SX is the problem , it makes USA riders amazing at technical rythem etc but poor at pure corner speed on rough corners

you can't argue with stupid or Yamaha owners

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close Mog....the Supercrossification of tracks nation wide in the US. The straights are longer with bigger jumps for spectators. Motocross is still won in corners but casual spectators don't understand this and look at corners as just the path to get to next set of jumps. The result is that riders aren't as good in the turns and more get hurt because the crashes are at higher speeds.   And not one set of whoops on any track on the national circuit or the FIM one either.....Every year the bikes get better at everything other than the turns. There is no emphasis on them.

Edited by Budlite
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Supercross is both, the reason we dominated so long, and the reason we cant win now. 

 

Supercross in the begining was a motocross track, indoors, with it brought intensity and aggression. If you wanted to win on the tight tracks with 20 minute motos you had to get a start, charge hard from the start of the race till the end and if you wanted to pass, you had to push the guy out of the way. We brought that attitude outdoors and dominated with that attitude for years. 

In the late 80s, along came bigger triples, no problem, it helped with our corner speed, because if you wanted to win you had to jump and in rder to jump ypu have to have exit speed. 

 

In the mid 2000s supercross tracks started changing, jumps got bigger, rythems got longer because it was entertaining, when guy couldn't hit the big jumps, they created bowl turns so even the average novice could rail it. Our kids, most of todays stars, started emphasizing on jumping more, and cornering less.

 

While all this was happening, the euros were learning our race intensity and aggression while still progressing outdoors. France started hand picking youth to put into special programs. Instead of being a dumb homeschool kid, their riders go to a special school where they actually learn about life and than do intensive mx training.  Instead of 8 races a year like our top amatuers do, they have the EMX series. They have MXGP academy that helps kids get to the big races with full support.  I was out at a private track last week watching some you fast kids practice, once the track dried up and got rough theyu stopped riding and started complaining about the track. GP kids practice on straight junk tracks. 

Their top teenagers would come here and destroy LLs, they dont even come here to do LLs anymore because they think its a joke. 

 

Our kids better hope that the Euro kids dont start coming, because they are faster. 

 

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1 minute ago, GBowman said:

Supercross is both, the reason we dominated so long, and the reason we cant win now. 

 

Supercross in the begining was a motocross track, indoors, with it brought intensity and aggression. If you wanted to win on the tight tracks with 20 minute motos you had to get a start, charge hard from the start of the race till the end and if you wanted to pass, you had to push the guy out of the way. We brought that attitude outdoors and dominated with that attitude for years. 

In the late 80s, along came bigger triples, no problem, it helped with our corner speed, because if you wanted to win you had to jump and in rder to jump ypu have to have exit speed. 

 

In the mid 2000s supercross tracks started changing, jumps got bigger, rythems got longer because it was entertaining, when guy couldn't hit the big jumps, they created bowl turns so even the average novice could rail it. Our kids, most of todays stars, started emphasizing on jumping more, and cornering less.

 

While all this was happening, the euros were learning our race intensity and aggression while still progressing outdoors. France started hand picking youth to put into special programs. Instead of being a dumb homeschool kid, their riders go to a special school where they actually learn about life and than do intensive mx training.  Instead of 8 races a year like our top amatuers do, they have the EMX series. They have MXGP academy that helps kids get to the big races with full support.  I was out at a private track last week watching some you fast kids practice, once the track dried up and got rough theyu stopped riding and started complaining about the track. GP kids practice on straight junk tracks. 

Their top teenagers would come here and destroy LLs, they dont even come here to do LLs anymore because they think its a joke. 

 

Our kids better hope that the Euro kids dont start coming, because they are faster. 

 

Weisel also argued this and the following; they are moving kids to four strokes too soon which detracts from learning the fundementals on a big bike, i.e. they need to do a year on 125s like they do in Europe. They push these kids to fast and burn them up or they get injured. 

The price of racing since what i call the Japanese manufacturer's ban on 2 stroke racing cloked in the hypocracy known as AMA. 

We are losing. I left drag racing for the same reason, money buys technology, the driver is barely a percentage of what is driving the car. MX is not so easily defined this way but it is affected the same way, if American's are not oooooooo'd and awwwwww'd then we make the product bigger a flashier. Watching a girl with a flamethrower at St Louis? I feel like Monster owes me 5 dollars for wasting my time with that. 

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This sport is out of hand at the entry level. I blame the hot 50's for the demise of motocross. 10 yrs ago  Jr started racing on a pw50. The cost of that bike was 500.00 used to 1200.00 new. The sport was affordable at the entry level. Now it you want to check this sport out you have to drop 2500.00 on a pile of shit hot 50. Then the real problems start because you actually need two of them to keep one running. That cost right there chases mom and dad away before they get can get hooked.  DC/MXsports really could give two shits. DC's world is based around LL's. He will always get his 1300 entries and that is all that matters. If the numbers are down he will adjust and add a another C class to clean up the lack of entries in the mini classes 

IMO, This sport is in the shitter and it won't be able to pull itself out of it.  This won't bother DC/MXsports one bit. Off road and LL's is big enough to carry him to retirement.  

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I pretty much agree with all of the above. Also because of supercross many of the kids go Hare scrambling. Why risk the life altering injury when you can ride your tail off on an older bike in one of the many Hare Scrambles/off road series. The races are long enough you get your fill...even back when I did the Moto thing you had to ride two classes to get enough ride time to be worth it. Also I lived and remember the ground swell in the 70's that produced the dominant 80's. I Remember those multiple heats of 100's, 125's full of kids. Those two strokes were relatively cheap and fixable by most farmer and clutch head type. My kids bounced out of Moto because of the cost of competitive 250 four strokes. Things may have changed but it wasn't long ago it was cheaper racing a 450 as stock it had more power than useful. Wish the current kids had that opportunity I had....to mow lawns, build rock walls, and cut trees to be able to earn a series of bikes that I could race. Looks like unless there is a completely dedicated family, a family in the business, or lots of money, its had to move ahead in the sport. That leaves a lot of talent playing video's games as the alternative

Edited by weimedog
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7 hours ago, redrider144 said:

The cause is the pussification US males due to liberalism.

i must say..im very disappointed in our U.S. riders. i was actually &%$#@!ing embarrassed. From now on, i will never talk sh!t about euro riders. Jeffrey &%$#@!ed up our 450 class yesterday. Also, has anyone seen Beebs? He owes me $50 hahaha.

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18 minutes ago, RMZ819 said:

This sport is out of hand at the entry level. I blame the hot 50's for the demise of motocross. 10 yrs ago  Jr started racing on a pw50. The cost of that bike was 500.00 used to 1200.00 new. The sport was affordable at the entry level. Now it you want to check this sport out you have to drop 2500.00 on a pile of shit hot 50. Then the real problems start because you actually need two of them to keep one running. That cost right there chases mom and dad away before they get can get hooked.  DC/MXsports really could give two shits. DC's world is based around LL's. He will always get his 1300 entries and that is all that matters. If the numbers are down he will adjust and add a another C class to clean up the lack of entries in the mini classes 

IMO, This sport is in the shitter and it won't be able to pull itself out of it.  This won't bother DC/MXsports one bit. Off road and LL's is big enough to carry him to retirement.  

Not just that let mom and dad float an E.R. visit and watch even more to bow out.

People forget the bike is a %, kids grow like weeds. Helmets, gear, boots, are not cheap either. Traveling and vehicles...... don't know how they do it. 

But i think there is more to it. I have noticed many of my customers for example, the adults are just like the kids. They play video games with their kids! There is no room for competition, it hurts people's feelings too much.

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1 hour ago, GBowman said:

Supercross is both, the reason we dominated so long, and the reason we cant win now. 

 

Supercross in the begining was a motocross track, indoors, with it brought intensity and aggression. If you wanted to win on the tight tracks with 20 minute motos you had to get a start, charge hard from the start of the race till the end and if you wanted to pass, you had to push the guy out of the way. We brought that attitude outdoors and dominated with that attitude for years. 

In the late 80s, along came bigger triples, no problem, it helped with our corner speed, because if you wanted to win you had to jump and in rder to jump ypu have to have exit speed. 

 

In the mid 2000s supercross tracks started changing, jumps got bigger, rythems got longer because it was entertaining, when guy couldn't hit the big jumps, they created bowl turns so even the average novice could rail it. Our kids, most of todays stars, started emphasizing on jumping more, and cornering less.

 

While all this was happening, the euros were learning our race intensity and aggression while still progressing outdoors. France started hand picking youth to put into special programs. Instead of being a dumb homeschool kid, their riders go to a special school where they actually learn about life and than do intensive mx training.  Instead of 8 races a year like our top amatuers do, they have the EMX series. They have MXGP academy that helps kids get to the big races with full support.  I was out at a private track last week watching some you fast kids practice, once the track dried up and got rough theyu stopped riding and started complaining about the track. GP kids practice on straight junk tracks. 

Their top teenagers would come here and destroy LLs, they dont even come here to do LLs anymore because they think its a joke. 

 

Our kids better hope that the Euro kids dont start coming, because they are faster. 

 

G, if and when my son begins showing interest in riding and racing....and if he is any good and wants to go as far as he can with it...im seriously considering sending him over seas to race. i actually believe euro racers are better than us.

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32 minutes ago, jz125 said:

Not just that let mom and dad float an E.R. visit and watch even more to bow out.

People forget the bike is a %, kids grow like weeds. Helmets, gear, boots, are not cheap either. Traveling and vehicles...... don't know how they do it. 

But i think there is more to it. I have noticed many of my customers for example, the adults are just like the kids. They play video games with their kids! There is no room for competition, it hurts people's feelings too much.

I remember when my parents bought me my first bike and promptly sold it after my first er visit but by then I was already hooked and went out and got a job so I could buy my own bike. They got me started which is all that matters. It was pretty easy to buy my own bike when I lived at home and could save 100% of my pay checks. 

Priorities...

 

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4 hours ago, mog said:

SX is the problem , it makes USA riders amazing at technical rythem etc but poor at pure corner speed on rough corners

you can't argue with stupid or Yamaha owners
 

That will only get worse when we go to a year of pure sx.

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I think the USA will have great racers and winners , it's a cycle , we were embarrassed for many years , tomac Anderson and baggett would easily win mxdn if they ride like they can

you can't argue with stupid or Yamaha owners

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13 minutes ago, mog said:

I think the USA will have great racers and winners , it's a cycle , we were embarrassed for many years , tomac Anderson and baggett would easily win mxdn if they ride like they can

I don't know.  I think Bowman and Mongo are right.  SX bowl turns have helped pussify the US riders.  We know Tomac can ride much faster than he did at Ironman, but that doesn't mean he can beat Herlings.

We don't have the same talent level anymore that we did for a team 10 years ago of riders like RC, RD, and RV.... or the GOAT team of O'Mara, Bailey, and Johnson.  There there is Jeff Ward, who rode on 9 MXdN / Trophee dN teams and those teams won every time.  

Edited by redrider144
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The euro field was week then , unlikely to be the same gap again , tomac baggett and Anderson are super fast and could hold there own easily if fit etc , baggett needs to be able to hang on with his hand to perform

you can't argue with stupid or Yamaha owners

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I'm tired of hearing about how anderson can win against the euros. That piece of sh!+ Can't EVEN finish a season here in the states. He beraly gets by when the field is stacked in outdoors

The Fitness Factory

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Not sure what has really changed, I mean when Caroili came over, I think only Dungey beat him at Colorado and that was most likely due to him casing a jump and backing off after that, his corner speed looked better than Dungeys also. Remember Desalle came over a few years ago and was running the top pace, had a top 3 finish. This really wasn't a fair comparison because Baggett is having a tough time holding on and Tomac was there to win a championship, not lose one. Marvin looked to be able to run Herling's pace but looked a bit ragged. I mean how many Euros can come over and do what JH just did? Possibly Cairoli, no one else, I think could do it. So I don't think we're as bad off as people make it out to be, lets see what Tomac can do in the GP, he smoked the field last year, of course AC is healthy and JH is riding well...

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Biggest problems were mainly hit by GBowman and Mongo

"when guy couldn't hit the big jumps, they created bowl turns so even the average novice could rail it. Our kids, most of todays stars, started emphasizing on jumping more, and cornering less." - GBowman

A local pro friend said kids can jump a mile but can't corner very well.  His dad made him ride figure 8s on flat terrain to work on cornering.

Bring  back the 125 2T class.  Realize 250 4T bikes make the same power as the old 250 2T class bikes.

I was a ski instructor, ski school director, and mogul coach for a Freestyle team. In the morning they went to school.  In the afternoon, we went skiing.  Lessons in motorcycle riding are not well organized. Family and friends being the usual instructors.

Edited by Kev_XR
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While Herlings was really on one this race, its only one race and he had nothing to lose. I would want to see him come here and compete in a whole season before I would be worried. Dean Ferris also came from AU and did really well in the first moto so its not like this is something that hasn't already happened this season. 

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