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Calling MOG / others, 07 crf 450 fork/shock valving changes

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Ok soo I have finally gotten around to implimenting the changes MOG sugested in above thred. Thanks again MOG!  I know what took so long , ha 

Anyway I want to give some feed back, ask a few Qs, and ask where to go from here...

First off I may have thrown a wrench in all this right from the start as I believe MOGs recomended changes are for the stock spring rates of .46 fork and 5.4 shock. I actually have .49 fork and 5.7 shock. I am around 190 lbs suited up and tend to ride a bit forward particularly over jumps ( ha just waiting for the day I pull a Roxzen). I am a vet expert BUT I can ride at the young guys speed when needed but generally ride a tic below but enough to lead the vet class. MOST of the tracks I ride are harder pack with square edge stuff. Its the square edge stuff and the washboard that seems to be the biggest problem . In fact the stock valving worked great for me on softer tracks where the bumps are bigger and rounder. Its the sharp choppy stuff that seems to cause all the problems. 

just to clarify this is the changes made..

Fork, remove 3 compression face shims from base valve and one compression face shim from mid valve

Shock, remove 3 compression face shims and add 3 rebound face shims

Ok so feedback from MOG change. The sharp spiky feel and deflections off smaler square edge stuff is a bit better. Whats intersesting to me however is the spikey feel is still there BUT it is muted a bit . Hard to discribe but sort of like the difference between hitting a square bump and a round bump both the same size on a bicycle with no suspension. They would both give you a jolt but one is a bit sharper feel. These valve changes did seem to improve the feel a bit but there is still a spike just not as sharp.

So I am wondering, These changes basically were a softening of the LOW SPEED part of the valve stacks. Im wondering, do I need to play with the HIGH SPEED section of the stacks to help with the spiky harsh thing?

This condition is in both fork and shock. BTW I have reduced oil in forks to around 350cc. This helped a bit also but as I say theres still a bit more sharpness on high speed square edge stuff than would like.

One last thing, I already miss the control the stock valving had when at warp speed and ridding agressive. Its crude and spiky and choppy BUT there is a bit more controll. It is however quite bad at turn entrance in real choppy square edge washboard making the front hard to keep in line. 

So to sum up , I like MOGs changes but seems the high speed section of stacks may need attenion?? Maybe the low speed sections should go back to a little stiffer? say half way between stock and MOG setting mentioned above? 

Looking for sugestions.....

 

Edited by lowmass

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Could be , I would need to know what changes you have now ,I have honestly forgot

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14 minutes ago, mog said:

Could be , I would need to know what changes you have now ,I have honestly forgot

Hi MOG

Fork , .49 spring, removed 3 compression face shims from base valve and one compression face shim from mid valve

Shock, 5.7 spring, removed 3 compression face shims and added 3 rebound face shims

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Is this a 450 R or X? I had a '08 R and got it dialed pretty good. I can post them up if you need R stacks.

 

 

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The rebound what clicker setting do you have ? 9? You could go 2 more face shims , this maybe why your feeling some harshness still ,open up the rebound to get some more flow through the circuit

 

The showa do benefit from a bleed hole in the midvalve and also the shock piston, but that's for hardpack riding mainly. And it messes up your comp and rebound so it's a lot of tuning

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, mog said:

The rebound what clicker setting do you have ? 9? You could go 2 more face shims , this maybe why your feeling some harshness still ,open up the rebound to get some more flow through the circuit

 

The showa do benefit from a bleed hole in the midvalve and also the shock piston, but that's for hardpack riding mainly. And it messes up your comp and rebound so it's a lot of tuning

 

 

 

 

so with the stock valving the shock rebound I end up set about 5 out from full hard ( stock setting is 7out) so I had to slow rebound down a bit to taim the rear. The front didnt really respond much to clickers with stock valving unless went way out and then it was a mess.

With present valving I have set all clickers back to stock settings ( have not played with clickers yet),  fork comp 7 reb 9 ,   shock comp 9 reb 7 

BTW rode in dryer conditions  yesterday, been wet last few weeks (not deep mud just slick). The present valving was actually quite good at the higher speeds of riding a dryer track,but a bit less control in the bigger bumbs than stock valving. It feels less spiky but perhaps a bit less control in the bigger fast bumps. It may be a bit soft overall ? as it seems im bottoming a bit much. Its still has a shade of spike but higher speed seems to blow through it much better than the lower speeds was going when it was wetter conditions.

Also there are a few big kickers out there now  that werent there before. There hard kick like travel has run out hard. I have to read track a bit more and finess more ( weighting and unweighting bike) with this setting to avoid slam. Although I admit that if I unweight and float over these sections it will dance level with no kick.

Anyway in wetter slower stuff didnt like. When on hard dry felt good but speed was higher here and theres still a shade more spike than seems nessasary.

It seems were quite close really just need a small tweek perhaps. A little less spike and a little more bottom control......

Edited by lowmass

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Yes in that case I would increase the compression damping with some face shims and stiffen the rebound , you don't want the rebound at 7 ,I nearly had the biggest accident on a rmz with the rebound at 6 , it kicked massively , never did it any other time

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20 hours ago, mog said:

Yes in that case I would increase the compression dampin , you don't want the rebound at 7 ,I nearly had the biggest accident on a rmz with the rebound at 6 , it kicked massively , never did it ang with some face shims and stiffen the reboundy other time

ON shock...

1- so your saying may need to increase compression damping ( I assume by puttting some face shims back?) Is this because I say that the new valving may seem a bit soft as it seems to bottom more than should? Remember I still feel what seems to me to be too much spike.

2-  "you dont want the rebound at 7". I now have at stock clicker setting of 9 with new valving (added 3 face shims on rebound). Are you saying to slow the rebound down even more by taking clicker out only say 5 clicks? 

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It might be too much spike because its bottoming ? It's hard to say you have to try something to prove the theory

On rebound yes you want the clicker at 12 not 9 , so add another 3 shims ? Together the right damping with the clicker in the middle , I don't agree with clicker at 9 , it gives only 2 usable clicks left if you. Want more

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2 hours ago, mog said:

It might be too much spike because its bottoming ? It's hard to say you have to try something to prove the theory

On rebound yes you want the clicker at 12 not 9 , so add another 3 shims ? Together the right damping with the clicker in the middle , I don't agree with clicker at 9 , it gives only 2 usable clicks left if you. Want more

The spike is felt even at lower speeds were no chance of bottoming. It is noticeably more plush than stock valving but still a bit spiky. 

Sounds like at this point I need to do some clicker play to see if its effect can reveal whats going on better. 

 

Not sure I understand what you mean here.."Together the right damping with the clicker in the middle , I don't agree with clicker at 9 , it gives only 2 usable clicks left if you. Want more"

 

I understand wanting clicker in middle but you say "clicker at 9, it gives only 2 usable clicks left". I dont understand this part? How does 9 have only 2 usable clicks left?

 

BTW just for info purpose. I am comparing my suspension action to my friends 2005 crf250. The bike is undersprung for me for sure BUT damn the valving seems good. Like ridding a pillow in comparison and it handles sooo much better than my 450. I understand this has more to do than just the suspension but its so plush over the square edge its just night and day difference.

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I don't believe the showa is safe with the clicker tighter than 7 , so from 9 to 7 is 2 clicks, you have loads if you want to speed up the rebound

As to the spike , I do believe you need the bleed holes , I ran a bleed shim , but as I said it's major work getting it right. Running your clicker at 12 will lessen the spike , as it's a common bleed circuit , it shares it with compression , the further out the rebound the more bleed you have on compression. It's always a compromise and the compression actually sounds close apart from the spike ?

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31 minutes ago, mog said:

I don't believe the showa is safe with the clicker tighter than 7 , so from 9 to 7 is 2 clicks, you have loads if you want to speed up the rebound

As to the spike , I do believe you need the bleed holes , I ran a bleed shim , but as I said it's major work getting it right. Running your clicker at 12 will lessen the spike , as it's a common bleed circuit , it shares it with compression , the further out the rebound the more bleed you have on compression. It's always a compromise and the compression actually sounds close apart from the spike ?

YES I think the compression is close so possibly the effect of a bit more bleed ( rebound clicker at 12)  may be enough combined of course with needed extra comp and rebound face shims to compensate for loss?? 

 

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When you tighten the rebound adjuster ,it closes the bleed hole in the centre of the shaft , this is also unfortunately is the bleed for the compression ( it flows both way ) so if you don't have enough rebound and you go to 6clicks you are left with almost no free flow of oil before the shim stack opens , this can cause a huge kick on super fast sharp edge bumps

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OK sounds good. I will take some time and play with clickers a bit to verify thoughts etc. and move on from there.

Thanks MOG for the help !

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7 hours ago, mog said:

When you tighten the rebound adjuster ,it closes the bleed hole in the centre of the shaft , this is also unfortunately is the bleed for the compression ( it flows both way ) so if you don't have enough rebound and you go to 6clicks you are left with almost no free flow of oil before the shim stack opens , this can cause a huge kick on super fast sharp edge bumps

"huge kick",,,bad enough to confuse with bottoming? Hmmmm.  Thanks.

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