stator Even loctite didn't save me... what do I need?

[jeopardy98]

So about 2 years ago, maybe 3 I had to replace my stator. Did the loctite fixes on the stator and flywheel. The other day my bike ran out of gas (or so I thought). I pushed a mile to the gas station and still wouldn't start. Got a ride home,  grabbed my trailer and went to get it. Brought it home and cleaned the carb. Still no start. Then I hit the starter again and get the dreaded sound of a free spinning starter. Pulled the cover and found the carnage. 

I know I need new bolts and a new stator and a new gasket. Is there anything else I could have fubarred? 

[ohiodrz400sm]

Let me guess, you torqued those M6 bolts to the factory service manual specs?

When you replace the bolts 7 ft-lbs and loctite will be sufficient.
The manual's recommendation of 19 ft-lbs exceeds the yield strength of the bolts and causes the problem you have there.

[jeopardy98]

1 hour ago, ohiodrz400sm said:

Let me guess, you torqued those M6 bolts to the factory service manual specs?

When you replace the bolts 7 ft-lbs and loctite will be sufficient.
The manual's recommendation of 19 ft-lbs exceeds the yield strength of the bolts and causes the problem you have there.

Good info. Will I need anything else or is there anything I need to check while in there?

[ohiodrz400sm]

Just look for any other damage and make sure you don't loose any of the bushings and washers around the starter clutch during disassembly. Check out the FAQ's , there is a recommendation on how to orientate the washers around the starter clutch.

[WheeliePete]

Upgrade the bolts per the FAQ, and obey the FAQ torque values.  Some year's of the FSM and also the Clymer manuals have that bogus torque value for the rotor bolts.  It's a major f-up on their part when they wrote those manuals.  Here's a picture of what happens when you try to run those bolts up to 19 ftlb...notice how the right one is stretched?  I felt it going and backed it out, then went and got a cross reference of bolt torque values and saw that 19 ftlb is waaaaaaaay too much for those little fasteners.  These were bolts stamped grade 10.9.  Great time to upgrade to 12.9 grade bolts and a drop of high-strength loctite.  Here's a link to the FAQ  https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/548456-stator-and-starter-clutch-loctite-fix/

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by WheeliePete

[qkenuf4u]

Red or blue loctite ? Red truly shouldn't allow em to back out/come loose.. but then there is a reason for green (other than on hardly)

Definitely not 19 ft/lb bolts. Lol eeeekkk

Guess I'll be the second to know if this fix doesn't work on my customers drz... 

[Robert Otto]

That is the second one I've seen this summer,00'XR650R.Use Caution when re-assembling,these hard bolts will pull the already strtetched threads pretty fast.

[Newjorciks]

Well, got my taste of chewed stator myself few days ago, heard rattling sound in left cover after starting it up one day, opened it up today. My assumption is that the stator is dead, has a few ripped cords and of course also exposed cords from rubbing with one screw that decided to snap in half.

[Yamaguy55]

The numbers on the metric bolt heads correspond to hardness the way the marks on SAE bolts did. You need to use the upper end of hardness, without going overboard on torque. 

Many metric bolts are 8.8, but I'd go for the 12.xx ones (sorry, can't remember the LSD. Suffice to say grade 12 metric will be plenty strong) Use red or even green loctite.

Remember, loctite can be loosened with heat, and I'm sure the engine heat is close, if not over the amount needed. Makes me wonder when loctite comes with spark plug thread repair kits, especially on air cooled four strokes. Go to Loctite website and see what they offer, there may be a heat resistant version. If you're concerned about the "nut" end, use Timeserts: they'll never come out and are plenty torque proof. 

 

Torque: I've been doing this a long time (since the sixties) and with the exception of the one-time-use head and rod bolts, most bolts will give you a "feel" if you don't use a five foot cheater bar. I run bolts of unknown torque in until they seat. Then, if you carefully turn them in, you can feel where they suddenly need a lot more pressure to tighten further. That is the bolt stretching. An additional turn of about the equal of noon to one o'clock (30 degrees) is usually about right. Loads the bolt but doesn't kill it. This is similar to those rod bolts that get XX ft/lbs and then xx degrees after that. Also similar to taper seat spark plugs. 

 

Let us know how it went.

[lodola235]

Hi, do you know the system  heli coil you even get an stronger traed  than original .

if there is place enough,

you take the drill (everthing is in the kit) you drill teh damaged thread out (of corse nice straight),

you take the special tapp  ; the trick to make an nice straight  traed, :  let the workpiece unther the drill machine positioned , and with a ceterpoint in th drill holder, you can with good managed force make an nice straight tread, of coarse lubrificate the drill and tapp

and you insert an special 'spring' with the insert tool ( of corse you clean the drilled hole for graese oil and drill chips and so ) and with the other tool you tapp the little hook on the bottom of the 'spring' away

there are long sprins ad short springs, you do an little locktite on the spring to secure, and be aware there doesn't stick no piece of spring out, becorse then it is difficult to insert an bolt,

let it dry and insert the first bolt with some grease . i've repaired many treads with that system, is also availeble for spark plugs

sorry for my poor english, i'm from Belgium

[Newjorciks]

Where should I get the 6 new bolts for the flywheel from? I think I want to get the 12.9 hardness bolts as recommended, but not sure where to get the bolts. I assume someplace like the hardware store might not be reputable enough to get bolts for inside of the engine.

Also as all the 6 bolts are slightly loose, is it normal for the flywheel to have some turning play? As in I can turn the flywheel a milimeter or so before it starts turning the engine. Almost like the holes where the bolts go through the flywheel on it are plenty larger than the bolt threads.

[Robert Otto]

Not sure about the looseness,You should be able to order anything from Fastenall if you know the thead pitch and size??

 

[jeopardy98]

Replaced with 12.9 bolts and red on the flywheel and blue on the stator and all is good in the world again. 

[DrzDick]

Ok, this is a really old post now ? but for anyone else reading this... take a close look at that flywheel.

The flywheel has slipped and sheared all 6 bolts.

You now need to remove the flywheel as the woodruff key has probably been destroyed so needs replacing, all 6 bolts sheared so a portion of them should still be in the threads, if not where are they??? 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by DrzDick

[Erik Marquez]

18 hours ago, DrzDick said:

Ok, this is a really old post now ? but for anyone else reading this... take a close look at that flywheel.

The flywheel has slipped and sheared all 6 bolts.

You now need to remove the flywheel as the woodruff key has probably been destroyed so needs replacing, all 6 bolts sheared so a portion of them should still be in the threads, if not where are they??? 

 

The flywheel should come off, as its the only way to get it really clean and debris free.

BUT the starter gear screws tight, loose, or missing have zero to do with the flywheel attachment to the crank. The flywheel is aligned to the crank with an index key, and that is all the key does, index the two.

The flywheel is held in place by a taper fit to the crank...

[DrzDick]

Ah...of course...

I got confused between the OP's comments and Newjorciks, as Newjorciks stated he had play in the flywheel.

so what has happened here then?

How has the starter gear become disconnected from the flywheel?

Is it just that all the other 5 heads were likely broken off by maybe 1 broken head. If so I guess one head startered backing out, came into contact with the stator, sheared off and then whilst jammed by the stator it damaged the others.

[Erik Marquez]

2 hours ago, DrzDick said:

Ah...of course...

I got confused between the OP's comments and Newjorciks, as Newjorciks stated he had play in the flywheel.

so what has happened here then?

How has the starter gear become disconnected from the flywheel?

Is it just that all the other 5 heads were likely broken off by maybe 1 broken head. If so I guess one head startered backing out, came into contact with the stator, sheared off and then whilst jammed by the stator it damaged the others.

Repeated starting and I think failed starts were the motor kicks backwards part rotation all work to loosen the starter gear fasteners. for what ever reason Suzuki did not pin the starter gear to the flywheel and the holes in the flywheel are larger diameter than the fasteners. So the flywheel and starter gear can move relative to each other.

The thread lock we suggest putting on the fastener threads helps keep them from coming loose.  

[jeopardy98]

I was able to spin each shaft of each bolt out of the starter gear easily.  I also removed the flywheel and cleaned it properly.  My key on the crank was fine.  It's all back together and running good.  I think numerous starts/non starts with a very high compression engine just caused at least one of the bolts to shear and then when it was weakened all the rest started to follow.

[jjktmrider]

The Yamaha 600's, 660 , and 700 bikes and atv's don't have the starter gear's sprag bearing pinned ,plus only use 4 bolts , though they're 8mm. IIRC Honda xl/xr's don't have any pins either , the bolts hold them fine, but again 8mm instead of 6mm but still only 4. Really the DRZ isn't any different than most of the Japaneses ds bikes and atvs , yet they don't have such a common issue as the z, even Suzuki's own LTR450/RMZ450 which has the exact same setup doesn't suffer from it.

 

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Edited April 30, 2018 by jjktmrider