2018 Beta Race Edition Reveal (Thursday Oct 12)

[GP]

9 hours ago, Sycamore said:

You can delete the estart as well and include that in that box you can buy later.

The estart is worth it here.  A LiOn battery weighs next to nothing, and the starter is on the bottom and centrally located so the mass means little.  This, and its been 100% reliable for 350+ hrs.  try that with a KTM, even a new one(they run dry). 

Keep the starter and continue to offer the blanking plate.  Removal is easy, just lift the motor a bit, no removal.

[Sycamore]

Just now, GP said:

The estart is worth it here.  A LiOn battery weighs next to nothing, and the starter is on the bottom and centrally located so the mass means little.  This, and its been 100% reliable for 350+ hrs.  try that with a KTM, even a new one(they run dry). 

Keep the starter and continue to offer the blanking plate.  Removal is easy, just lift the motor a bit, no removal.

Worth it to some.  But if cost is an issue on a new bike it certainly helps.  You bring a new bike home and now you need $$ to set it up.  If we want to keep the sport going it needs to be affordable.  Too much bling gets in the way of that.  I like the idea of a bare bones X that has the ability to have everything IF you want it later.

  The new ktms have a stellar record so far on the new estart.  Setup right the old ones seem to as well.

[GP]

Its a matter of what MOST want and do not want in specifying a hypothetically new model bike.  For an XC model bike, MOST, by far, would want estart, because its a time and energy saver.  MOST also would not want all the other Euro wiring crap.  Don't believe it, start a poll.

[Sycamore]

1 hour ago, GP said:

Its a matter of what MOST want and do not want in specifying a hypothetically new model bike.  For an XC model bike, MOST, by far, would want estart, because its a time and energy saver.  MOST also would not want all the other Euro wiring crap.  Don't believe it, start a poll.

I think MOST want a cheaper bike.  I'm not sure you understand the X bike concept being referred to.  There should be a model where you get all the bling vs a model that gets you in the game without breaking the bank.

It would be real interesting to see which model sells the most.  All the bells and whistles vs an X like setup.  I'm thinking the X would sell quite well.  Owners could get into the game, set it up for what everyone does 99% of the time and then purchase the things THEY think are important later.  I use estart very little, I dont get what all the fuss is about on a 2s. If an X model were available I'd likely buy lights before an estart.  Others can do what they want. Everyone's happy.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Sycamore

[Johnny Depp]

7 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Ok so let's look at this again..

In the case of the 300 rr vs the race edition the price for the rr is $8499... and the race above is $8950.  Shit that's a fricken deal to me for the forks and the bling..  A $451 difference?? That's all?  I do like the street legal side of the 4 strokes. vs the race editions.. but that's just depending on certain states. 

 

http://www.betausa.com/content/430-rr-s-0   So $9899 for the rrs and the same price for the race edition????  Shit man that's more than reasonable. That's a deal!!! I mean I like a street legal and I like the race edition. This is a good price.. but of course.. add  $500 or so for the kick starter installed for both.. plus the 2 strokes above.. if I were buying an 18 that is.

 You are leaving out the (apparently) new $379 destination fee and you don't get oil injection included so that's a manufacturer cost reduction. Funny how nobody mentions the bling other than the red white and blue graphics. I don't feel many are seeing desirability there.

[Johnny Depp]

17 minutes ago, Sycamore said:

I think MOST want a cheaper bike.  I'm not sure you understand the X bike concept being referred to.  There should be a model where you get all the bling vs a model that gets you in the game without breaking the bank.

It would be real interesting to see which model sells the most.  All the bells and whistles vs an X like setup.  I'm thinking the X would sell quite well.  Owners could get into the game, set it up for what everyone does 99% of the time and then purchase the things THEY think are important later.  I use estart very little, I dont get what all the fuss is about on a 2s. If an X model were available I'd likely buy lights before an estart.  Others can do what they want. Everyone's happy.

 I get what you are saying, an even cheaper entry level X-Trainer let's say. No lights, computer, switches, kickstand, skid plate, e-start, oil injection, perhaps a 125cc engine option etc. You could probably drop the MSRP $1500/2000 and it might become the new biggest seller. Is it the Xtrainer short frame or the low MSRP that is making it Beta's #1 seller? Maybe both.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Johnny Depp

[VTMTcowboy]

Wish they had the Race Edition 4 strokes CA street legal!  The prices are reasonable for sure.

[dirtbird]

Hey guys, I think that your cost calculations are not entirely correct here.

Instead of the current 2T product line which is essentially 1 model (in two versions, RR and Racing) lets suppose that we would have bike A without ES but street legal, bike B without everything (ES, lights, harness, OI, etc) plus the current bike in its 2 versions. 5 different bikes in two displacements making a total of 10 versions.

Do you really think that this would lower costs?

I don't because this would increase production time and decrease parts order to the suppliers.

And of course by removing the electric start, lights and using a cheaper harness does not lower cost 2 grand. Two hundreds maybe, but  20.... hundred, certainly not. X-trainer's lower cost comes from the suspension components and the expansion chamber (and for the latter I am not so sure, maybe FMF could not produce or better wasn't practical to produce a trials like exhaust). Everything else is or (frame) costs about the same with the main model.

So initially Beta follows the trend set by KTM (electric start) being also careful to improve the system's efficiency and reliability.

Sycamore, not to start an argue but KTM's new el start while being much better than the past, still has some problems related to starter's support. Check better in ktmtalk and if you don't find the related threads, I will find them for you. But its far from stellar.....

[GP]

What GG has done in the past, and I believe Sherco now, is build a run of US only market XC bikes, not part of world market.  Because they are small they can do this.  If Beta doesn't have to, they probably won't.   If sales eventually flatten out from competition or otherwise, and/or the importer sees market growth in it, maybe they could work a deal for a USA XC model. 

[surfer-dude]

With regards to the 300 2 strokes, and also here in California:

Would one of them carry a green sticker and the other a red sticker?

or are they both red sticker, or green stickered?

Because I think I'd like to give the better suspension equipped one a go.

Although I believe that I usually ride private areas anyways so maybe the tag doesn't even matter. But i'd rather have a green sticker and sparky if I could help it.

[Sycamore]

2 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

 I get what you are saying, an even cheaper entry level X-Trainer let's say. No lights, computer, switches, kickstand, skid plate, e-start, oil injection, perhaps a 125cc engine option etc. You could probably drop the MSRP $1500/2000 and it might become the new biggest seller. Is it the Xtrainer short frame or the low MSRP that is making it Beta's #1 seller? Maybe both.

Beta is already offering multiple bikes to service the market, same concept KTM has being doing for years.  Just add one more.  Heck beta doesnt offer an mx version if I remember right, they could kill two birds with one stone and one up ktm's SX model by making it more versatile with a 6 speed tranny vs ktm's 5.  Keep a stator capable of  lights/starter and now your talking. Then offer an mx model in both 250 and 300.  

It would peak my interest big league.  lol

[Johnny Depp]

1 hour ago, dirtbird said:

Hey guys, I think that your cost calculations are not entirely correct here.

Instead of the current 2T product line which is essentially 1 model (in two versions, RR and Racing) lets suppose that we would have bike A without ES but street legal, bike B without everything (ES, lights, harness, OI, etc) plus the current bike in its 2 versions. 5 different bikes in two displacements making a total of 10 versions.

Do you really think that this would lower costs?

I don't because this would increase production time and decrease parts order to the suppliers.

And of course by removing the electric start, lights and using a cheaper harness does not lower cost 2 grand. Two hundreds maybe, but  20.... hundred, certainly not. X-trainer's lower cost comes from the suspension components and the expansion chamber (and for the latter I am not so sure, maybe FMF could not produce or better wasn't practical to produce a trials like exhaust). Everything else is or (frame) costs about the same with the main model.

So initially Beta follows the trend set by KTM (electric start) being also careful to improve the system's efficiency and reliability.

Sycamore, not to start an argue but KTM's new el start while being much better than the past, still has some problems related to starter's support. Check better in ktmtalk and if you don't find the related threads, I will find them for you. But its far from stellar.....

You are forgetting some of the main cost cutting measures, like a smaller engine 125 /200. De-content all non essentials.

E-start and battery (unless it is cheaper to produce than kick starters)

cooling fan

less wiring harness

lights and all switches on the bars and in the brakes

computer

kick stand

oil injection

skid plate

plastic chain guard

golden tyres substitute a cheaper brand

power valve? (it may not be worth it?)

I feel a $4999 price point is achievable. Make Dirt Biking affordable again!

 

[Sycamore]

1 hour ago, dirtbird said:

Hey guys, I think that your cost calculations are not entirely correct here.

Instead of the current 2T product line which is essentially 1 model (in two versions, RR and Racing) lets suppose that we would have bike A without ES but street legal, bike B without everything (ES, lights, harness, OI, etc) plus the current bike in its 2 versions. 5 different bikes in two displacements making a total of 10 versions.

Do you really think that this would lower costs?

I don't because this would increase production time and decrease parts order to the suppliers.

And of course by removing the electric start, lights and using a cheaper harness does not lower cost 2 grand. Two hundreds maybe, but  20.... hundred, certainly not. X-trainer's lower cost comes from the suspension components and the expansion chamber (and for the latter I am not so sure, maybe FMF could not produce or better wasn't practical to produce a trials like exhaust). Everything else is or (frame) costs about the same with the main model.

So initially Beta follows the trend set by KTM (electric start) being also careful to improve the system's efficiency and reliability.

Sycamore, not to start an argue but KTM's new el start while being much better than the past, still has some problems related to starter's support. Check better in ktmtalk and if you don't find the related threads, I will find them for you. But its far from stellar.....

I would guess the $$ would be 500-800 bucks which would bring down the price quite nicely and just above the YZX by a few 100 bucks.  I wouldnt worry about suppliers IF you guys think estart is as important as you say they are.  Those sales will pick up later as people purchase them.  If they dont guess they're not that important to riders.

I havent seen any measureable failures on NEW ktm estart.  I dont doubt there are some but until beta starts selling in the same numbers as ktm we can then compare notes.

[dirtbird]

35 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

You are forgetting some of the main cost cutting measures, like a smaller engine 125 /200. De-content all non essentials.

E-start and battery (unless it is cheaper to produce than kick starters)

 cooling  fan

less wiring harness

lights and all switches on the bars and in the brakes

computer

kick stand

oil injection

skid plate

plastic chain guard

golden tyres substitute a cheaper brand

power valve? (it may not be worth it?)

I feel a $4999 price point is achievable. Make Dirt Biking affordable again!

 

JD, the 125 is coming at the end of this year . From the other parts you are suggesting, I think only the computer and oil injection would offer a noticeable cost cutting. Still not more than 100euros in the production line so I would say not more than 250-300 USD retail....

Golden tires are actually more expensive than Michelins and while you don't love FIM tires in US are actually much better in single paths than conventional mx tires.

Not in terms of pure traction but in overall bike handling (and how they react in adverse situations like off cambers etc.). Also take into account that all racers in Europe are using mousses.

A 21th century 2-stroke without a power valve? Come on, you can't be serious.....unless its a 5 hundred mx bike....

 

Sycamore, I tend to believe that Beta (in its 6th model year) has sold more bikes with this type of electric starting since KTM is selling it for only 1 year.

What matters most though, is that after all these years, there are very few problems and those in quite used 3yrs+ old bikes.

[hawaiidirtrider]

4 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

 You are leaving out the (apparently) new $379 destination fee and you don't get oil injection included so that's a manufacturer cost reduction. Funny how nobody mentions the bling other than the red white and blue graphics. I don't feel many are seeing desirability there.

You don't feel that many are seeing the desireability there????   That goes without saying getting the race edition graphics and bling are nicer .... but the meat is the forks. Ever since the first race edition I saw in 2009 that's the straight out trickest nicest looking bike. You don't think the race editions look better? Race editions always have looked better and should... as far as the destination fees and shipping or whatever just look at what you buy and add on the shipping prices that goes to Hawaii. Even with whatever that has been added on to Beta prices it's still cheaper than ktm and Husky prices for me . As far as no oil injection? Great!! I don't want it anyway. 

[ccullins]

4 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

 You are leaving out the (apparently) new $379 destination fee and you don't get oil injection included so that's a manufacturer cost reduction. Funny how nobody mentions the bling other than the red white and blue graphics. I don't feel many are seeing desirability there.

That's not a new fee, it's the shipping charge that dealers have always had to pay (I think it went up a little this year) whether they pass it on the the custmer or not is up to the dealer. 

Personally on my trials bike sales I don't add any freight or setup charges, but I also don't cut any deals and sell pretty much all my bikes at MSRP. Unless it's a customer who is buying his 3rd or greater bike from me, but that's a case by case basis. 

[hawaiidirtrider]

On 10/12/2017 at 6:48 AM, Johnny Depp said:

Photos are up at Betausa  http://ambetaimages.com/2018-race-editions/

 

So the race editions aren't nicer than the rr's???  I think they've always been nicer.. Find a year the race editions didn't look better and didn't have the best bling and setup.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[hawaiidirtrider]

3 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

You are forgetting some of the main cost cutting measures, like a smaller engine 125 /200. De-content all non essentials.

E-start and battery (unless it is cheaper to produce than kick starters)

cooling fan

less wiring harness

lights and all switches on the bars and in the brakes

computer

kick stand

oil injection

skid plate

plastic chain guard

golden tyres substitute a cheaper brand

power valve? (it may not be worth it?)

I feel a $4999 price point is achievable. Make Dirt Biking affordable again!

 

$4999 .. ok JD please don't troll in the Beta threads..  .. unless you want to go to these which is ok too. It's already exactly at your price point.

http://www.betausa.com/content/125-rr-s

Hey it's even on dirtbiketest!!!!

https://dirtbiketest.com/fresh-dirt/first-riding-impression-beta-125rr-s/#X3LESm0yojgAK7vj.97

oooo look jimmy even caught some air!!!

I'd like one of these too.... I guess I can get a small warehouse and fill with bikes and sleep on the floor..

Edited October 13, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[hawaiidirtrider]

Ok so there's an announcement of the race editions.. so it's back to waiting till they actually get in the hands of riders.. So when is that??? I didn't see that part yet.. but then the 125 2t didn't come out yet and well we will just see how the 18's that are just getting into riders hands do.  Of everything I think I'm most interested in the clutch as a new item. I'm wondering how that will work and if it's more of an improvement for performance or just weight. The race editions big advantage or improvement is the forks as usual. So this year it will be more of an evolution to see how guys get their forks to work .. either by themselves or through the new Beta suspension service or something else. All the bikes look nice but honestly I'm still sort of looking over my shoulder toward the red color. I know that brands have to do some changes to switch up for every up coming year. I personally rather like the black rims before changing to silver for the 17's. The big news over the past year of course is color isn't a big deal anyway since now we have options of white,red, black and the dayglow yellow which surprisingly looks good with graphics on a bike. We have more options than ever. I'm irritated by no kicker stock which is sort of almost expected considering the weight loss wars. The other part that is sort of shouldn't be so much of interest to me is the 125 2t. I didn't even look but is that included on the race editions???  For some reason that bike is more of an interest to me that should be logical for an almost 58 yr old... but I want to ride one!!!!!  

It's interesting to me that the bike that isn't brought into USA is the 50 .   .... and yet I see through the grapevine that they've had a race model too for years. I'd like to see that too. I still see a bunch of guys in groups riding some little hondas with little wheels and little motors  around town . It would be cool to see  . They sort of sound like riding weedeaters.. ? 

last year..

 

[Sycamore]

17 hours ago, dirtbird said:

J

 

Sycamore, I tend to believe that Beta (in its 6th model year) has sold more bikes with this type of electric starting since KTM is selling it for only 1 year.

What matters most though, is that after all these years, there are very few problems and those in quite used 3yrs+ old bikes.

You'd have to show me some raw numbers.  A few guys have them(beta) here that have been bit or fed up with ktm suspension or their add on pre-17starter (most seem to have the fix for them now) or just want something different.  It is a sea of orange and husky white.  Our race series had 3 beta's show out of almost 300 riders. 

And I think you hit on it, beta just hasnt done anything in 6 years.  The riders I knew here and had them LOVED the bike once they got suspension sorted and dove into the motor to eek out more power.  KTM came out with an all new bike and all of them ditched beta.  Most of these guys have some reasonably high disposable income and look for the latest and greatest available or so goes the thinking.  KTM isnt without teething issues but the starter hasnt been one of them.  I pour over the forums havent seen a thing other then guys putting in the wrong bolt on the clutch cover which Fs up the starter. Lots of bitching on the warped reed cages, the kick starter do hicky possibly breaking (fixed for 18), flywheel cutting insulation.

Figuring out the mukuni has been problematic for some or maybe even most.  Suspension on the linked versions have been compared to SSS and on the TE and W side guys are raving about the stock xplor.  I think the SSS is a stretch but I dont know, same with the xplor.  I took one ride on mine and was impressed but still took them to get tweaked.

So yeah for 6 years beta ought to have it down vs ktm changing things.  Still IMO ktm needs to gets its ass kicked on some of this shit, but I sure cant complain.  

Still, in a race, there really isnt anything a well set up ktm has over a well set up beta.  

But back on topic.  Beta needs to be the company that doesnt f up as much as ktm while also offering what the public wants.  And I think guys are looking at price tags and saying WTF.  There's an opening here and the yammieX is close but misses the mark beta could easily fill.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Sycamore