Crf230f EFI conversion

I will be working on this project this winter. I figured I would put it here since I use a 230 motor. Here are a few pictures of the system I have chosen. It is a single injector 35mm throttle body. ECM IAT MAP are all built into the TB.IMG_0475.jpg

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Very interested!  You get it figured out this would be my next mod as well.   

reason? goals? concerned at all about complexity?

reason? goals? concerned at all about complexity?

Basically the same reason EFI is on everything these days. I ride in varied altitude and big temp changes. Complexity is always a concern, and it will be slightly heavier, but this system has been working well on another bike for a while and several thousand hard miles. The PD carbs are not the best, and the pwk or pumper carbs are trying to solve the pd shortcomings anyway. EFI is just a different solution to the same problems. Plus it is interesting to me which I guess at the end of the day is all that matters. If it doesn’t work out I will just join the pwk train.

Figured, just wanted to back up what I thought. Document this and looking forward to the tribulations and progress.

I love when efi is dialed in perfectly... Ultimate control across the board and no swapping brass while dialing in on the dyno... Wonderful to tune and experience..

What I don't like is all the frailty of efi...a myriad of componentry , all of which can plug or fail, and leave you stranded miles from nowhere....  And I have experienced that also....

A simple/ mechanical carburetor is as reliable as a brick... Will not / can not fail and leave you stranded..... No battery, no micro filter, no ECU, no injector, no throttle position sensor....

I have to say that my Chinese knock off PD accelerator pump carb has been, hands down, the best $40 performance investment of my life....!

I had to spend some time modding it, but that's my #1 hobby anyways... Pulls like I added a bore kit and revs like I added cam duration... No weakness anywhere... and killer response with the accelerator pump...

Efi is the bomb for absolute AFR control  ...  and trick as hell... But it has a lot componentry and a lot of potential failure points...

Edited by mixxer

Mixxer, at some point I hope you get to try the PWK.  I just tried the one on BTRs stock 230 and built 230. Its very crisp, when zapping the throttle.  I finally have all the internal PWK parts together, only need to order the throttle cable but it will be a while with my schedule.  Next step is to epoxy the adapters onto the body.  

19 hours ago, chadzu said:

 

I will be working on this project this winter. I figured I would put it here since I use a 230 motor. Here are a few pictures of the system I have chosen. It is a single injector 35mm throttle body. ECM IAT MAP are all built into the TB.

What is this from?  Is it tuneable?  Is ignition also controlled with this system?

EFI is something I have thought about doing to my 230F but what is more attractive to me is a tuneable ignition system with feedback via knock sensor.  I think I saw a universal one from MSD that was affordable but haven't looked at doing this mod in awhile.

25 minutes ago, MetricMuscle said:

What is this from?  Is it tuneable?  Is ignition also controlled with this system?

EFI is something I have thought about doing to my 230F but what is more attractive to me is a tuneable ignition system with feedback via knock sensor.  I think I saw a universal one from MSD that was affordable but haven't looked at doing this mod in awhile.

Im with you on the ignition system Please share any info you find.

This company has something in development now. https://www.nanoefi.com/2016/06/01/new-feature-reveal-announcement-plus-giveaway-winner/

Here's the MSD system,.. too pricey for me  https://www.msdperformance.com/products/powersports/small_engine/parts/4217

I don't know if that ECU can do knock sensing and adjust spark lead. Even Microsquirt, because of its small size, needs an outboard knock module. However logging would be useful for adjusting the spark lead table. My XR218 w/ 11:1 has ping issues when hotter than normal in the 3-3.5krpm range so a 3D ignition map instead of the analog mechanical advance would be nice. The 230 has a flatter combustion chamber with less included valve angle so is more knock resistant.  

EFI can do for bikes what it has done for cars. I'm old enough to have owned cars from before the digital age and carburetors suck compared to modern EFI systems. As far as reliability I probably have over a million miles with EFI cars and the only issues have been the need to replace early O2 sensors at about 100k.  So they seems much less issue prone than carbs and they certainly work much better.  

IMO the problem with OEM EFI is they are closed propriety systems and not easy to tune. For a carb replacement I'd want a system that was easy to DIY tune.

There is lots of material on various forums about DIY EFI on motorcycles.  
 

1 hour ago, Baja Rambler said:

Mixxer, at some point I hope you get to try the PWK.  I just tried the one on BTRs stock 230 and built 230. Its very crisp, when zapping the throttle.  I finally have all the internal PWK parts together, only need to order the throttle cable but it will be a while with my schedule.  Next step is to epoxy the adapters onto the body.  

I understand that the flat slide pwk carb works well on the 230...

But I have to tell you that the pumper carb I put on mine is flat out amazing... No ifs, ands, or butts... Instant response with solid pull ... And pulls great on top with me enlarging the bore height to the max and eliminating the choke restriction... Bolts right up same as stocker... No adapters needed of any kind... And personally I like the stealth aspect of it looking like a stocker... Until you notice the pump😎...

I'm sure the pwk works great... But this $40 carb has no weakness at all... It responds and hauls the mail!! Love it..

Edited by mixxer

I have to add the reality factor in also....

EFI has the POTENTIAL to be perfect....

Now... Ask me how many perfectly tuned efi systems I had come across in all my years of dyno tuning ... Guys with piggyback modules and lambda meters and laptops included...

 

Zero... Not one ....

Next up... Ask me how many that had paid for Dyno tuning somewhere and had correct maps made at all throttle positions and RPM...  

 

Zero... Not a frickin one....

You have to run and Dyno document power and AFR at all rpms and all throttle positions.... And adjust and re run and verify until it's perfect... And then it truly is perfect... Anything less and you might as well be throwing darts in the dark... Because that is what you are doing...

 

So... EFI has the potential.... But if it isn't done all the way correct... You have no advantage at all over a decently jetted carb... None... But with all the frailty/ completely of efi (and expense)

It's all in the level of commitment to the project... Right now I would put my $40 chinese knock off PD pumper up against any setup at any cost.... 

But from experience I wouldn't put it up against an EFI that I had a dyno and a few hours of tuning on...

Commitment is where it's at🤘

 

In fact...  install EFI with improper mapping and you will soon be missing your properly-jetted and properly-sized simple little carb.

For example...  EFI-equipped HDs can be made very good with a lot of dyno tuning but out of the box they are miserable.  Slow and sloppy throttle feel and response is the trade-off for semi-auto A/F adjustments to cope with changing ambient conditions.  Ride a HD with stock EFI and then ride one with a properly-jetted and properly-sized carb and you will be blown away.

I am a big fan of EFI but only when it is tuned by an expert.  I am not a fan of EFI on a utility bike like XR200 or CRF230.

If you really want to make a good thing bad go ahead and add drive-by-wire along with EFI.  My buddies were raving about a new BMW 335 one of their wives had purchased -- They said it was the fastest car they had ever driven.  When I got a chance to drive  it I expected to be somewhat impressed but I was not.  To say throttle response was slow is being very kind -- It was asleep.  It was impossible to time simple things like power slides or partial half-donuts with that thing.  It was miserable and it was not all that fast.  Though it was also EFI my old 1997 SLP SS Camaro had instant throttle feel and response and made antics very easy.  That car was made for an experienced driver while the 335 seems to have been made for a novice.

The CDI that comes with this system is controlled by the ECM to some extent.  It will also work just fine with the Honda ECM.

This is a Speed Density based system with an auto-tune ECM. The software does seem a little limited as far as outside tuning goes.  I don't think I will ever be able to get to the fuel or ignition tables and make adjustments.  I can see the fuel and ignition trim adjustments that the ECM decides it needs. TPS calibration is easilly done in the software.

My goals for this system are simple. Does it run as well as the xr200 PD carb?  Does it give the same or better fuel economy. 

21 hours ago, woodsryder said:

Im with you on the ignition system Please share any info you find.

This company has something in development now. https://www.nanoefi.com/2016/06/01/new-feature-reveal-announcement-plus-giveaway-winner/

Here's the MSD system,.. too pricey for me  https://www.msdperformance.com/products/powersports/small_engine/parts/4217

That isn't the MSD unit I remember seeing, it was a universal unit for up to 4 cylinders with a variety of optional inputs and outputs.  Might coulda been an ACCEL or some other such well known car performance part maker. 

 

21 hours ago, Chuck. said:

I don't know if that ECU can do knock sensing and adjust spark lead. Even Microsquirt, because of its small size, needs an outboard knock module. However logging would be useful for adjusting the spark lead table. My XR218 w/ 11:1 has ping issues when hotter than normal in the 3-3.5krpm range so a 3D ignition map instead of the analog mechanical advance would be nice. The 230 has a flatter combustion chamber with less included valve angle so is more knock resistant.  

EFI can do for bikes what it has done for cars. I'm old enough to have owned cars from before the digital age and carburetors suck compared to modern EFI systems. As far as reliability I probably have over a million miles with EFI cars and the only issues have been the need to replace early O2 sensors at about 100k.  So they seems much less issue prone than carbs and they certainly work much better.  

IMO the problem with OEM EFI is they are closed propriety systems and not easy to tune. For a carb replacement I'd want a system that was easy to DIY tune.

There is lots of material on various forums about DIY EFI on motorcycles.  
 

I actually have a sprank brand new MicroSquirt, probably a 1st generation, I intended to use on a Suzuki Intruder 1400.  I have visited the MegaSquirt forum looking for how best to go about building or purchasing a programmable ignition module for a CRF230F but my mind has to be in the mood to decipher all of the technical EFI speak not typically used by those who aren't Forum members.  I'd prefer to just purchase a universal unit or one from a vendor like DIYTune who I got a completely assembled, plug in ECU for my Mazda Miata.  It comes programmed for an unmodified engine, just swap it out with the OE unit, use a laptop to make one or two options and it is ready to go.  Use the laptop to make any adjustments to fuel or ignition.

 

2 hours ago, VortecCPI said:

In fact...  install EFI with improper mapping and you will soon be missing your properly-jetted and properly-sized simple little carb.

For example...  EFI-equipped HDs can be made very good with a lot of dyno tuning but out of the box they are miserable.  Slow and sloppy throttle feel and response is the trade-off for semi-auto A/F adjustments to cope with changing ambient conditions.  Ride a HD with stock EFI and then ride one with a properly-jetted and properly-sized carb and you will be blown away.

I am a big fan of EFI but only when it is tuned by an expert.  I am not a fan of EFI on a utility bike like XR200 or CRF230.

The aggravating issues you refer to are EPA tuning restrictions and yes, both OE carb and EFI usually need some love. 

 

32 minutes ago, chadzu said:

The CDI that comes with this system is controlled by the ECM to some extent.  It will also work just fine with the Honda ECM.

This is a Speed Density based system with an auto-tune ECM. The software does seem a little limited as far as outside tuning goes.  I don't think I will ever be able to get to the fuel or ignition tables and make adjustments.  I can see the fuel and ignition trim adjustments that the ECM decides it needs. TPS calibration is easilly done in the software.

My goals for this system are simple. Does it run as well as the xr200 PD carb?  Does it give the same or better fuel economy. 

Where did you find that system?

I have found a similar system when I searched for "NC250" which is printed on the label.  Ecotrons makes a few conversion kits.  http://www.ecotrons.com/products/small_engine_fuel_injection_kit/

Some of the software running. 

 

1 hour ago, VortecCPI said:

If you really want to make a good thing bad go ahead and add drive-by-wire along with EFI.  My buddies were raving about a new BMW 335 one of their wives had purchased -- They said it was the fastest car they had ever driven.  When I got a chance to drive  it I expected to be somewhat impressed but I was not.  To say throttle response was slow is being very kind -- It was asleep.  It was impossible to time simple things like power slides or partial half-donuts with that thing.  It was miserable and it was not all that fast.  Though it was also EFI my old 1997 SLP SS Camaro had instant throttle feel and response and made antics very easy.  That car was made for an experienced driver while the 335 seems to have been made for a novice.

I have not driven a 335 but I've owned 3 BMWs that were drive by wire, but so are a lot of other cars. If you move the throttle slowly on  my current one it has a very lazy throttle at low speeds, great for starting from a stop in snow with the power of a V8. If you move the throttle quickly the power delivery is very different.  Some of what you may be experiencing is the difference between the power of a 3L six versa a larger V8.  My riding friend has a Honda-Montesa 4RT which has a 250 4T water cooled 4 valve motor with no battery Keihin EFI; the throttle response is better than any carb bike I've ridden including those with FCR carbs. But he complains the bike is difficult to ride when he is tired. From my limited knowledge of EFI  they can be programmed to respond to different throttle opening speeds via fuel/spark, and/or a throttle stepper motor.  Some of the newer motorcycle EFI systems have map switches on the handlebars to alter power delivery.

One big nagging issue in my mind with DIY EFI is reliability, I hate walking out so if I go EFI I'll add hiking boots to my pack.

Have said that the last time I had to hike out was in the sixties when I couldn't ride up out of a ravine with a dual sport because of the wet clay and no knobby. Since then I don't ride down things unless I know I can ride out. For mechanical problems I've always been able do field repairs to ride out. And I do know EFI can be reliable on dirt bikes, my friend's 05 4RT has never had a problem, it is a typical reliable Honda product.  But a DIY EFI would worry me, especially with non J components. I want to EFI two XRs to solve several problems I have with carb/ignition and have done a bunch of research, but I'm not quite ready for the big time commitment. For all of the above reasons I'm very interested in the progress, and results,  of this project.

On EFI:

Spark with a Microsquirt is easy; it will output a trigger signal to a CDI unit, just use a XR200 CDI unit that has no electronic advance, or a CRF250/450 coil on plug CDI.  There are other solutions such as inductive ignition but IMO they are a bit more complicated and require DC power.

The uSquirt requires a good crank  position signal and the Honda "tooth" on the flywheel and the sensor won't without some signal conditioning. Best would be a multi tooth signal wheel, but space inside the left cover is scarce (I'm still working on that for my XR200).   Then run the ignition as wasted spark like the CRF250/450s do and the uSquirt won't need info regarding compression/exhaust TDC.  Single cylinder engine speed varies a lot during each engine cycle especially at low engine speeds, and a multi tooth wheel will provide the most accurate crank position info to the uSquirt. Add in a throttle position sensor (TPS) and you can have spark lead adjusted to suit manifold vacuum to improve part throttle performance like the CRF250/450s. You could do the same with a MAP sensor but you would need to use a fast response MAP sensor and the latest code, a side benefit is the uSquirt can use that info to determine engine cycle position wo a cam sensor.

 

1 hour ago, Chuck. said:

 

One big nagging issue in my mind with DIY EFI is reliability, I hate walking out so if I go EFI I'll add hiking boots to my pack.

 

You could just put the "Stone cold reliable as a brick" carb you pulled off to install the efi in your backpack instead of hiking boots... Lighter... Takes up less room... No hiking involved👍

I can tell you we have to completely remove the stock ECU from the 17-18' KTM 500's. Even unlocked with the Euro tune they don't perform anywhere near as good as the $700. (Ouch) Vortex ECU's. 😳

One other thing if you are only trying to get your fuel injection as good as a stock carb, that's not saying much. 🤔

However hopefully it will rip and work well. 🤗

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