Rotella 15-40

[turbo dan]

43 minutes ago, FaintReality said:

Here is my oil analysis using Rotella T6 5W-40 in my 16' KTM 350 SXF.

I change oil every ~5hrs and the oil filter every other oil change.  On this particular analysis, both the oil and filter had 4.7hrs usage. 

I plan to change oil again this weekend which I believe is right at 5hrs to see how it looks with ~10hrs on the filter as well as to check the mentioned low viscosity. 

Anyone know what would cause the low viscosity mentioned in the report?

Low viscosity is possibly due to the gearbox shearing the oil down.  I have read a few other posts referencing the T6 doing the same thing in shared sump engines.  This is why you generally want to avoid wide viscosity indexes in these applications unless you go with a real PAO or ester synthetic.  The Rotella synthetic is a hydrocracked petroleum oil.  It will shear down much more than a real synthetic oil.

That's why I run the 15w40.  Thicker base viscosity means less viscosity index improvers are required to hold the oil together.  The 15w40 will still shear but it is  more likely to remain at least a 15w30 at the end of the service interval.  A 5w40 can chop down to a 5w20 in no time.

[turbo dan]

6 minutes ago, Casing-daily said:

Wow dropped down from 40 to 11 in 5 hours? 

Doesn't appear to be doing much lubricating. Whoa... 

I heard t6 sucks even worse than t for viscosity loss, who knows why but one thing I do know is that I won't be using it lmao..

11 cst is in the low range of a 30w oil.  It sheared from a 40w to a 30w at 100 degrees C.

[Creeature]

I think the problem with running true a/3 b/4 esters etc is they too slippery for the clutch.

The good oils designed for motorcycles need friction enhancers, extreme pressure additives, and what not. Transmission specific oils do not shear like that. 

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/motorcycle-specific-oil/

@MotoTribology care to elaborate what I'm trying to explain?

Edited November 8, 2017 by Casing-daily

[theBIGnaud]

26 minutes ago, Casing-daily said:

I think the problem with running true a/3 b/4 esters etc is they too slippery for the clutch.

The good oils designed for motorcycles need friction enhancers, extreme pressure additives, and what not. Transmission specific oils do not shear like that. 

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/motorcycle-specific-oil/

@MotoTribology care to elaborate what I'm trying to explain?

Kinda like ATF? 

[Chuck.]

 

53 minutes ago, Casing-daily said:

Wow dropped down from 40 to 11 in 5 hours?  

I'm no triboligist but it doesn't appear to be doing much lubricating. Whoa... 

I heard t6 sucks even worse than t for viscosity loss, who knows why but one thing I do know is that I won't be using it lmao.. ?

Where do you get the "40"?

[SteveThe Snakes]

10 hours ago, yz250f 78 said:

This was just discussed. Most on this forum are older guys that still ride for fun. 

At a pro racers stand point the rotella is not good.  It breaks down quick!  So if you are a fast rider that gets full rev out of your machine then rotella is not good. This is what you should try in your 250f.  Try it and abserve yourself.  Not sure on your 125 since it revs to the moon.  Might be a good oil in that machine also.  Test it

Nothing wrong with Mobil 1 fully synthetic or Shell T6. I have run Mobil 1 15/50 almost since it came out. Love the stuff. I don't run the thinner oils because I am in So. Cal. The climate makes some difference on oil weights. 

[Creeature]

10 minutes ago, Chuck. said:

 

Where do you get the "40"?

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/viscosity-viscosity-grades/

[Creeature]

39 minutes ago, theBIGnaud said:

Kinda like ATF? 

I heard its too thin viscosity wise.  

Pretty sure it's comparable to like 5w20. Motorex trans specific is 10w30 and motul is 10w40 fwiw. Belray does 75-85w and I'm not sure what that compares to...

How much do you pay for it?

Edited November 8, 2017 by Casing-daily

[irme42day]

Last oil change I switched the extra virgin olive oil, works well just can't pass a salad bar! 

[revitup]

Three bikes
2001 YZ250F (2002-2006) - 5W40 (Synth - Blue)
2006 KX450F (2006-2013) - 5W40 (Synth - Blue)
2013 CRF450F (2013-Current) - 15W40 (White - Clutch side, Rekluse) - 5W40 trans side

Never any issues. Changed every 5-10 hours.

[kdxyardsale]

Why does everybody think they have to re-invent the wheel. Race proven motocross oils (Maxima, BelRay, Honda, Yamalube, Motul) have stood the test of time with people who literally abuse to death their bikes, and have the same wet clutch technology. 

It cost me $8 to change my oil with BelRay's best oil. Cheap insurance for a $2000 motor. Why would I try to save $4 to grenade a $2000 motor? 

I get it if you are a teenager without a job, but if you can afford a $5000 dirtbike, buy good oil designed by engineers and tested for that purpose.

[Chuck.]

41 minutes ago, Casing-daily said:

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/viscosity-viscosity-grades/

Still no answer on where you got the "40".

The oil tested  only1 point under the minimum viscosity for the that grade of oil.

[Chuck.]

2 minutes ago, kdxyardsale said:

Why does everybody think they have to re-invent the wheel. Race proven motocross oils (Maxima, BelRay, Honda, Yamalube, Motul) have stood the test of time with people who literally abuse to death their bikes, and have the same wet clutch technology. 

It cost me $8 to change my oil with BelRay's best oil. Cheap insurance for a $2000 motor. Why would I try to save $4 to grenade a $2000 motor? 

I get it if you are a teenager without a job, but if you can afford a $5000 dirtbike, buy good oil designed by engineers and tested for that purpose.

Honda is not good oil, they will not publish the specs for their oil; just like the snake oil folks. And it shear breaks faster in my XRs than any other oil I have tried.

Your comment regarding engineering and testing is disingenuous because engineering and testing are based on facts and Honda won't share facts about their oils.

The oil industry is composed of the majors and 3rd party bottlers. There are only a few additive companies providing SAE/API compliant additive packages.  There are many versions of each level of base stock and you don't know which base stock a bottler is using. The second tier folks contract with bottlers for their oil. So that degenerates into two groups; those who are want to maintain their rep as providing the best oil for their customers, and those who are marketing for profit.  I'll also allow that accidents do happen. My high school buddy use to build race engines, and compete, for a living. Suddenly he and others were losing engines due to lube failure but were using the same brand of oil. Research indicated the oil company had changed bottlers and the base oil supplier was different. The oil company switch back to the original bottler and base stock, which fixed the problem.

Also the majors will use the best base stock for their oils, and sell the lesser to bottlers.

Rotella, and other fleet service oils like Mobil Delvac and Chevron Delo, were developed to extend engine life for fleet operators and they went thru a lot of field testing and engine tear downs to develop. The initial round was by Chevron, Detroit Diesel, and a CA fleet operator and added 50% to engine life. Diesel engine life has more than doubled since. When I was young my dad thought it was good to get 50k miles on ring in a car.  Using fleet service oils I was getting 250k miles out of cars in the early 90s. My son had a dump truck with 2million miles on the CAT engine.   Engine speed is irreverent because all engines are designed around controlling piston speed and a short stroke engine at 12krpm isn't much different than a long stroke diesel at 2000rpm. And if you want to discuss heat in an engine diesels often run 30-32psi of boost as normal, and because of the heat 2T turbo diesel use steel crowns on the pistons.

The fleet service oils are all API rated for gas engines so OK for gas engines, but they do have a detergent package designed to absorb more combustion byproducts than car oils, so they are high detergent. But so are the extended change interval car oils.

The 15W-40 SAE viscosity class, and thicker,  for the dino oil has a much higher SAE specs than those required of lower viscosity classes of car oils.

Research the specs and you will see the differences. Viscosity at 100C is an important one, higher is better, So is the High Temp high Shear at 150C, which indicates sliding surface performance like on pistons.  The viscosity at 40C is the "W" viscosity, lower is good for lube during warm up.

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Chuck.

[turbo dan]

3 minutes ago, Chuck. said:

Still no answer on where you got the "40".

The oil tested  only1 point under the minimum viscosity for the that grade of oil.

I imagine he misunderstood.  Feel free to make a big deal out of it though.

A 5w40 shearing down to a 5w30 in under five hours is not great, in any case.  Too many people see the "synthetic" on the label and think nothing more about it.  Both the 15w40 and 5w40 T6 are conventional base stocks.

[turbo dan]

5 minutes ago, kdxyardsale said:

Why does everybody think they have to re-invent the wheel. Race proven motocross oils (Maxima, BelRay, Honda, Yamalube, Motul) have stood the test of time with people who literally abuse to death their bikes, and have the same wet clutch technology. 

It cost me $8 to change my oil with BelRay's best oil. Cheap insurance for a $2000 motor. Why would I try to save $4 to grenade a $2000 motor? 

I get it if you are a teenager without a job, but if you can afford a $5000 dirtbike, buy good oil designed by engineers and tested for that purpose.

Rotella is better than some motorcycle specific oils.  Unless you're spending more than twice as much for a true group 4 synthetic you're not getting anything special anyway.

I get a gallon of 15w40 Rotella for $14.  Hard to beat that.  Waiting on the analysis to verify that it is getting the job done.

[Creeature]

19 minutes ago, Chuck. said:

Still no answer on where you got the "40".

The oil tested  only1 point under the minimum viscosity for the that grade of oil.

Oh now I realize you were just being a dick. My bad...

Its over 20 bucks for the t6 that drops a full grade in 5 hours sounds like a great deal...

[kdxyardsale]

Rotella is better than some motorcycle specific oils.  Unless you're spending more than twice as much for a true group 4 synthetic you're not getting anything special anyway.



I get a gallon of 15w40 Rotella for $14.  Hard to beat that.  Waiting on the analysis to verify that it is getting the job done.

Rotella blah blah Royal purple blah blah
BelRay for 40 years and not one issue for me.
I will stick with BelRay. Nothing proves an oil like the test of time.

[kurbe397]

Rotella and other full synthetics not for wet clutches will eventually lead to high spots and/or grooves on your friction plates. If you ride hard this will happen sooner than later. The synthetic formula actually provides too much protection from friction and the friction plates will eventually wear unevenly. This leads to a ‘grabby’ clutch when it gets bad. This is the same reason NHRA engine builders run standard non synthetic oil in most engines they build. Full synthetics don’t allow the wear parts to break in during the short engine life.

[turbo dan]

2 minutes ago, kurbe397 said:

Rotella and other full synthetics not for wet clutches will eventually lead to high spots and/or grooves on your friction plates. If you ride hard this will happen sooner than later. The synthetic formula actually provides too much protection from friction and the friction plates will eventually wear unevenly. This leads to a ‘grabby’ clutch when it gets bad. This is the same reason NHRA engine builders run standard non synthetic oil in most engines they build. Full synthetics don’t allow the wear parts to break in during the short engine life.

Show me full synthetic Rotella.  I do not believe it exists.  Rotella is JASO MA/MA2 spec, by the way, which specifically addresses wet clutch compatibility.

[Hans Schmid]

5 minutes ago, kurbe397 said:

Rotella and other full synthetics not for wet clutches will eventually lead to high spots and/or grooves on your friction plates. If you ride hard this will happen sooner than later. The synthetic formula actually provides too much protection from friction and the friction plates will eventually wear unevenly. This leads to a ‘grabby’ clutch when it gets bad. This is the same reason NHRA engine builders run standard non synthetic oil in most engines they build. Full synthetics don’t allow the wear parts to break in during the short engine life.

Like how soon? 50hrs? 100hrs? 260hrs? 400+hrs?