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THE KRAN

Total loss of compression, or Spark

221 posts in this topic

In his case the 2016 model is out of warranty. He's prolly having the dealer troubleshoot it. Yes, it's more complicated than a two valve XR200 motor. If he decides to pay the dealer then it's his decision but you seem to imply anything other than your viewpoint is wrong.


The read Post #52
If anyone is not currently owning a Beta then it is his opinion that “anyone” is a “shade tree mechanic” and does not have any information that is worth taking into consideration because they are not a factory trained technician that was trained by Beta in Italy

No question, That is my Viewpoint
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1 hour ago, redrider144 said:

 So the OP made a post describing symptoms hoping that a Beta engineer on the engine design team, and only a person fitting that description, would reply to the thread?

LOL at  @mixxer and @Wild Alaskan being shade tree mechanics.  Mkay.

What are the qualifications that make someone fit to diagnose this?  Do you think your Beta engine was designed and manufactured by elves using magic fairy dust?

What else was the purpose of describing the symptoms of the engine problem?  Just because he's bored and wants to chat with special snowflake Beta owners like you and HDR?

Normally I'd bite, but this thread is too serious for the typical responses that the non Beta owners come in hear baiting with, so I'll pass this time. 

In all seriousness,  guy looses compression and rather than concern or pertinent questions or any decorum for a fellow rider, we get a cross section of speculation from one side of the spectrum to the other. Super valuable :facepalm: Have any of these guys been inside a Beta motor? Have they even looked at how it's designed? Comparing this situation with a Harley,  wow,  that goes beyond comprehension.  Just because your Sears lawnmower lost compression in the 80's doesn't quite qualify you to diagnose a '16 Beta FI 430rr. 

I actually care about this thread because it directly affects me, since I actually own and ride a modern FI thumper, so I'll resist the temptation to partake in dragging this thread into another  gutter .

I'm sure there will be some witty response from someone who's never seen a Beta 4-stroke before in their life on how we Beta owners are over sensitive old and we "ALWAYS" get upset when someone questions things. 

Edited by firffighter
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Compression, fuel, ignition.

I didn’t realize that Betas were Diesel. So maybe they do not need an ignition source.

Pretty sure they do need compression.

But then I’m not a factory trained Beta Technician. ..Obviously. (I have never been to Italy)

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Jet World Powersports actually has 'real' mechanics, not like your typical Honda or Yamaha dealer.

They walk the walk, as I have previously grilled them on other issues, and they seem to know their stuff.

I don't imagine I will hear anything for at least two weeks.

I refuse to guess on what the trouble is.

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52 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Normally I'd bite, but this thread is too serious for the typical responses that the non Beta owners come in hear baiting with, so I'll pass this time. 

In all seriousness,  guy looses compression and rather than concern or pertinent questions or any decorum for a fellow rider, we get a cross section of speculation from one side of the spectrum to the other. Super valuable :facepalm: Have any of these guys been inside a Beta motor? Have they even looked at how it's designed? Comparing this situation with a Harley,  wow,  that goes beyond comprehension.  Just because your Sears lawnmower lost compression in the 80's doesn't quite qualify you to diagnose a '16 Beta FI 430rr. 

I actually care about this thread because it directly affects me, since I actually own and ride a modern FI thumper, so I'll resist the temptation to partake in dragging this thread into another  gutter .

I'm sure there will be some witty response from someone who's never seen a Beta 4-stroke before in their life on how we Beta owners are over sensitive old and we "ALWAYS" get upset when someone questions things. 

 

We are in the fresh aftermath of a planned mock thread from pro racing made to troll here in the Beta threads. It’s since been moved to general. So some of that group are here. Beta threads have been free of trash talk and trolls.Not anymore.. and thats just by some. A bunch here are just talking about krannies broken bike to just talk about bikes alone to help and it’s suspect on others who just want to come to Beta threads and screw things up troll just for their entertainment. It’s also coming on playing like ghey are being honest while planning to troll all along. It’s wasting time of those just concerned with just talking about bikes.  It’s bringing pro racing and TS trash talk to general threads.To me if those guys planned a whole troll thread once then they will never have credibility again.  So just a heads up for those not aware of trolls from pro racing coming to Beta threads to ruin them. 

It’s sad but it wastes everyone’s time . Just a heads up for everyones awareness. 

 

Pg 9 shows some of who’s here wasting everyone’s time... well some.. there are more who enjoy wasting our time that are playing today too. 

Krans bike is broken. That should be the focus and to help. Everything else should be away in the trash threads like pro racing and Town square 

 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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3 hours ago, firffighter said:

For those of us that actually own a 4 stroke, FI Beta,  I think we'll wait and see what happens with the bike at the Beta dealer and how/If the Beta warranty plays into the situation.  As well as any specific information pertaining to our bikes that is pertinent and may be helpful in us preventing this from happening to our Italian high performance motors.  

All of the shade tree mechanics piping in is useless and why someone would try and diagnose an engine problem on a bike they've never seen and know nothing about through a keyboard is ludicrous.  

The OP stated it's at the dealer.  I'm sure KRAN will be kind enough to keep us in the loop with what happened and he's got no reason to apologize as it's incredibly frustrating for your bike to have an issue and everyone telling you what went wrong on the internet.  

Exactlyyyyy. Nothing is more annoying than someone telling you what’s wrong or telling you how you should do your job or how you should do that or this etc. I am glad there is a select few that are realistic on here and not just keyboard warriors. 

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1 hour ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

 

We are in the fresh aftermath of a planned mock thread from pro racing made to troll here in the Beta threads. It’s since been moved to general. So some of that group are here. Beta threads have been free of trash talk and trolls.Not anymore.. and thats just by some. A bunch here are just talking about krannies broken bike to just talk about bikes alone to help and it’s suspect on others who just want to come to Beta threads and screw things up troll just for their entertainment. It’s also coming on playing like ghey are being honest while planning to troll all along. It’s wasting time of those just concerned with just talking about bikes.  It’s bringing pro racing and TS trash talk to general threads.To me if those guys planned a whole troll thread once then they will never have credibility again.  So just a heads up for those not aware of trolls from pro racing coming to Beta threads to ruin them. 

It’s sad but it wastes everyone’s time . Just a heads up for everyones awareness. 

 

Pg 9 shows some of who’s here wasting everyone’s time... well some.. there are more who enjoy wasting our time that are playing today too. 

Krans bike is broken. That should be the focus and to help. Everything else should be away in the trash threads like pro racing and Town square 

 

Yes, and you BY FAR the worst and dragging crap into a thread for no reason whatsoever but to be part of the conversation. 

You just crapped on my thread and then said 'see, don't do this'.  

My god.

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3 hours ago, THE KRAN said:

Jet World Powersports actually has 'real' mechanics, not like your typical Honda or Yamaha dealer.

They walk the walk, as I have previously grilled them on other issues, and they seem to know their stuff.

I don't imagine I will hear anything for at least two weeks.

I refuse to guess on what the trouble is.

That's good to hear, sucks about the two weeks.  

Can you ask them to run a leak down test at TDC?  That will tell them right away if they need to start tearing it apart, and you'd get an answer at least on that hopefully a lot quicker than 2 weeks.

I don't trust compression tests on bikes with auto decompression.  I mean yes the manual may have a spec but it's only going to tell you if it's totally screwed or not.

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4 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

 

We are in the fresh aftermath of a planned mock thread from pro racing made to troll here in the Beta threads. It’s since been moved to general. So some of that group are here. Beta threads have been free of trash talk and trolls.Not anymore.. and thats just by some. A bunch here are just talking about krannies broken bike to just talk about bikes alone to help and it’s suspect on others who just want to come to Beta threads and screw things up troll just for their entertainment. It’s also coming on playing like ghey are being honest while planning to troll all along. It’s wasting time of those just concerned with just talking about bikes.  It’s bringing pro racing and TS trash talk to general threads.To me if those guys planned a whole troll thread once then they will never have credibility again.  So just a heads up for those not aware of trolls from pro racing coming to Beta threads to ruin them. 

It’s sad but it wastes everyone’s time . Just a heads up for everyones awareness. 

 

Pg 9 shows some of who’s here wasting everyone’s time... well some.. there are more who enjoy wasting our time that are playing today too. 

Krans bike is broken. That should be the focus and to help. Everything else should be away in the trash threads like pro racing and Town square 

 

You realize this is the internet right? a couple people with experience gave up some of their own time to give potential diagnosis given the limited information. Then wasted more of their time to try and explain how four strokes work and why a ring failure would cause the symptoms described since no one wanted to waste their own time to figure it out. not sure why this is so offensive to beta owners? stuff breaks, shit happens, maybe beta forgot to gap a ring the day krannies bike was made. Maybe his bike ran out of gas and his buddy poured some oil in his airbox as a joke. I guess we will find out in two weeks.

In the end it was posted on the internet which assumedly means the OP intends it be discussed,  if you feel you are wasting your time there are a pile of other threads to waste time on perhaps productive ways? if saying likely causes for the symptoms described are offensive to beta owners (such as myself lol) then sorry! no harm intended. I sympathise with krannie especially if his top end is in fact toast, I know most people who ride a lot have gone through some expensive repairs, I know i have a pretty good sized box of pistons just from my own bikes.

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2 hours ago, redrider144 said:

That's good to hear, sucks about the two weeks.  

Can you ask them to run a leak down test at TDC?  That will tell them right away if they need to start tearing it apart, and you'd get an answer at least on that hopefully a lot quicker than 2 weeks.

I don't trust compression tests on bikes with auto decompression.  I mean yes the manual may have a spec but it's only going to tell you if it's totally screwed or not.

A compression test is a waste of time.  What if it at full spec?  Not tear down the motor then ? I don't think so.

The ONLY plan of action is to tear down the motor to the small end and start measuring wear tolerances.... along with the visual inspection.

 

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13 minutes ago, Wild Alaskan said:

You realize this is the internet right? a couple people with experience gave up some of their own time to give potential diagnosis given the limited information. Then wasted more of their time to try and explain how four strokes work and why a ring failure would cause the symptoms described since no one wanted to waste their own time to figure it out. not sure why this is so offensive to beta owners? stuff breaks, shit happens, maybe beta forgot to gap a ring the day krannies bike was made. Maybe his bike ran out of gas and his buddy poured some oil in his airbox as a joke. I guess we will find out in two weeks.

In the end it was posted on the internet which assumedly means the OP intends it be discussed,  if you feel you are wasting your time there are a pile of other threads to waste time on perhaps productive ways? if saying likely causes for the symptoms described are offensive to beta owners (such as myself lol) then sorry! no harm intended. I sympathise with krannie especially if his top end is in fact toast, I know most people who ride a lot have gone through some expensive repairs, I know i have a pretty good sized box of pistons just from my own bikes.

....must be the Rotella ;)

I have no idea why people are spinning and screaming in this thread. The bike broke. It will be diagnosed, and then it will be fixed.

Some of you think this is some horrendous omen of Beta's reliabilty, or a trend of bad workmanship or design, etc etc.

What if it just broke ?    

 

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....must be the Rotella 
I have no idea why people are spinning and screaming in this thread. The bike broke. It will be diagnosed, and then it will be fixed.
Some of you think this is some horrendous omen of Beta's reliabilty, or a trend of bad workmanship or design, etc etc.
What if it just broke ?    
 

Amen!

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DKW 125H: several Motoplat ignitions

Suzuki RM250A: flexing swingarms = bending shocks. Had to go with an allow swingarm

Suzuki RM250J: heim joints lasted about 4 rides. You just changed them a lot.  Fork bushings were so poorly tolerance the stiction was incredible. Just ignored it.

Bultaco Pursang MKV: list to long to post here. Siezing on straight aways was the highlight....had to get it resleeved and put in american bearings.

Honda TL250: Forks bottomed out so badly you could crack a molar. Made my own damping rods. 

Honda XL350R: so under-cooled (oil) that the stator would melt, if you rode it too hard. Which I did . I dare you to try and find and OEM one....

Honda XL600R: if you rode it hard, the frames would crack. No doubles, no whoop fields, just hard. The forks packed with air so you would lower the oil height and bleed hourly.

Honda CRF450R '02: shipped with intake valves designed to get another 500rpms and not float....which failed after about 20 hard hours, and mushroomed.

Honda CRF250X: Pistons cracked if you rev'd it a lot. 

Kawi KX450F: Pistons would crack on the crown for no reason at about 50 hours. Kawi made no provions to stop it. Cases seemed like they were made of dried toothpaste and would crack and strip out at 1/2 the torque spec. 

Honda CRF450X(A): 5th gear driven would seize on the shaft. Starter clutch would fail in 50 hours. Starter press gears would fail after you replaced the starter clutch. Shock bushings lasted 10 minutes.

Yam WR450F: 2003-2005: forks had defective base valves and would crack. The spring on the base valve would fatigue and jam sideways. 

Yam YZ450F: 2016+ : all seats mount brackets are not 'square' and cross threading them happens right away. 

Beta 430: Poorly mapped, and poorly adjusted FI/Stepper motor. Low quality accessories wiring harness(es) Weak air box cover rivets. Suspect Sachs fork internals hardening. Possible short lived stepper motor (supposedly fixed for 2018)...... 'Bad' pistons ??

Suzuki TS90 with 'hop up kit': 35 parts where swapped out to be competitive in the 100cc class. Every single motor would blow up in the first race, because Suzuki forgot to tell the dealers and buyers of the kits to tolerance the rings. The new expansion chamber would crack down the welds for the 'massive power' the 90cc motor put out.

 

 

 

Edited by THE KRAN
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KRAN

Hrs on the 430? 

Type of riding? Most hrs spent in upper revs in desert, lugging trails, in between, racing, ? 

Thanks

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Just now, firffighter said:

KRAN

Hrs on the 430?  125

Type of riding? Most hrs spent in upper revs in desert, lugging trails, in between, racing, ?  YES, ALL OF THOSE, BUT ONLY PLAY RACING. MOSTLY VERY STEEP AND ROCKY SINGLE TRACK. TONS AND TONS OF CLUTCH ABUSE, BUT NO SIGNS OF IT UPON INSPECTION. 

Thanks

 

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8 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

DKW 125H: several Motoplat ignitions

Suzuki RM250A: flexing swingarms = bending shocks. Had to go with an allow swingarm

Suzuki RM250J: heim joints lasted about 4 rides. You just changed them a lot.  Fork bushings were so poorly tolerance the stiction was incredible. Just ignored it.

Bultaco Pursang MKV: list to long to post here. Siezing on straight aways was the highlight....had to get it resleeved and put in american bearings.

Honda TL250: Forks bottomed out so badly you could crack a molar. Made my own damping rods. 

Honda XL350R: so under-cooled (oil) that the stator would melt, if you rode it too hard. Which I did . I dare you to try and find and OEM one....

Honda XL600R: if you rode it hard, the frames would crack. No doubles, no whoop fields, just hard. The forks packed with air so you would lower the oil height and bleed hourly.

Honda CRF450R '02: shipped with intake valves designed to get another 500rpms and not float....which failed after about 20 hard hours, and mushroomed.

Honda CRF250X: Pistons cracked if you rev'd it a lot. 

Kawi KX450F: Pistons would crack on the crown for no reason at about 50 hours. Kawi made no provions to stop it.

Honda CRF450X(A): 5th gear driven would seize on the shaft. Starter clutch would fail in 50 hours. Starter press gears would fail after you replaced the starter clutch. Shock bushings lasted 10 minutes.

Yam WR450F: 2003-2005: forks had defective base valves and would crack. The spring on the base valve would fatigue and jam sideways. 

Yam YZ450F: 2016+ : all seats mount brackets are not 'square' and cross threading them happens right away. 

Beta 430: Poorly mapped, and poorly adjusted FI/Stepper motor. Low quality accessories wiring harness(es) Weak air box cover rivets. Suspect Sachs fork internals hardening.

 

 

You need more KTM. Despite owning a few, no KTM's listed in your bike failure list? You need more KTM.

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Didn't quite understand "contaminated plug" (or) "lost compression".......if you would have said it has little to no compression then "ya" it's a mechanical issue somewhere from the valve train down.

I have a bore-scope, once I hear loss of compression or little compression then tank off, plug out take a peek inside, if I don't see anything then valve cover off, check decomp, valve timing, still nothing head off, cylinder off.

that's maybe a 2 hour job.

All these modern 4strokes are basically the same if you've worked on one you can work on them all.

Most shop rates are $80..ish + an hour and you're lucky if they follow flat rate, dirt bikes are money pits as it is, so anytime you can work on your own stuff you're saving money.

Like most guys on here I do all my own work including suspension, it's not that difficult.

 

 

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