Oil injection removal

[GP]

I use the Suzuki NEC* and NED* family of needles to jet 250s and 300s,  all of our bikes of different brands.  I have a pretty good table of my own for temp changes but altitude here is lower and consistent.   Still, your only 1K ' higher.  Is this a 250 or 300?

[rehammer81]

I use the Suzuki NEC* and NED* family of needles to jet 250s and 300s,  all of our bikes of different brands.  I have a pretty good table of my own for temp changes but altitude here is lower and consistent.   Still, your only 1K ' higher.  Is this a 250 or 300?

17' 300 RR

[GP]

Try this:

NECJ #3

162 main

35 - 38 pilot

as 1.5t

This is what runs excellent in 300s here @ 0 - 1K'.  Summer temps are in the 80s and 90s sometimes, and we have high humidity which you do not for sure, so it may balance out.  Some bikes like the 35, some the 38 pilot. 

 

[cj_wai]

2 hours ago, GP said:

If I wasn't so surprised I wouldn't have taken the pic.   I'll add this is with a stock 300 head that I never had modified to tighten squish.  It does demonstrate that premix ratio has little to do with engine cleanliness if jetting is correct.

your clean piston just indicates your jetting is rich. excess piston wash (from rich jetting) is the reason your crown and head are clean.  if it runs good and makes the power you like then your jetting is perfect for you .

[GP]

6 minutes ago, cj_wai said:

your clean piston just indicates your jetting is rich. excess piston wash (from rich jetting) is the reason your crown and head are clean.  if it runs good and makes the power you like then your jetting is perfect for you .

No rich symptoms at all and good torque.  Works for me. 

[rehammer81]

It's better for engine ware and longevity to be a tad rich then lean correct?

[rehammer81]

Looking in the manual they have some strange stock carb settings that don't make sense to me compared to what others have posted and the 2013-2015 Carb Jetting Table I've seen.

130 main jet
35 slow jet
50 start jet
N84K needle
2* needle position
2 turns out air screw

Is this for a different carb they come stock with in Europe or something. This is what my manual has for the 300RR.

[GP]

1 hour ago, rehammer81 said:

It's better for engine ware and longevity to be a tad rich then lean correct?

 

38 minutes ago, rehammer81 said:

Looking in the manual they have some strange stock carb settings that don't make sense to me compared to what others have posted and the 2013-2015 Carb Jetting Table I've seen.

130 main jet
35 slow jet
50 start jet
N84K needle
2* needle position
2 turns out air screw

Is this for a different carb they come stock with in Europe or something. This is what my manual has for the 300RR.

Those look like the Euro emissions settings, VERY lean.  Yes, it is always better to be a hair rich than lean.  Especially if you experience temp drops on the ride. They make the best torque when barely rich.

[rehammer81]

Those look like the Euro emissions settings, VERY lean.  Yes, it is always better to be a hair rich than lean.  Especially if you experience temp drops on the ride. They make the best torque when barely rich.

What is the difference between "start jet" and "slow jet" and how does it equate to the "pilot jet"? I only see people talk about needle, needle clip, main jet, pilot jet, and air screw turns.

[GP]

9 minutes ago, rehammer81 said:

2 hours ago, GP said:

Those look like the Euro emissions settings, VERY lean.  Yes, it is always better to be a hair rich than lean.  Especially if you experience temp drops on the ride. They make the best torque when barely rich.

What is the difference between "start jet" and "slow jet" and how does it equate to the "pilot jet"? I only see people talk about needle, needle clip, main jet, pilot jet, and air screw turns.

Slow jet = pilot jet.  The start jet is the starter ckt.,thats never changed.  Forget those specs they are useless for riding the bike, needed to sell it in Europe.

[firffighter]

3 hours ago, GP said:

needed to sell it in Europe.

Where's your proof of this claim? 

Sherco and KTM are selling their 2 stroke in Europe no OI, but you keep repeating that Beta is restricted by Euro 4. 

BTW, a simple Sudco .07 needle and some fine tuning with your pilot jet and AS do wonders on these Betas.  

[wwguy]

20 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Where's your proof of this claim? 

Sherco and KTM are selling their 2 stroke in Europe no OI, but you keep repeating that Beta is restricted by Euro 4. 

BTW, a simple Sudco .07 needle and some fine tuning with your pilot jet and AS do wonders on these Betas.  

Euro 4 affects all new models introduced in 2016, and all new bikes from 2017. The quote below is from Stefano Fantigini, Beta’s Head of R&D, during an interview in July 2015 at Beta's 2016 enduro model rollout event.

“A major limitation when riding a two-stroke is that you have to carry oil everywhere (on longer rides) and then mix it when you stop to refuel. Our main goal was to make it easier for our customers to use our bikes, especially when they’re out doing a long day’s enduro riding. It’s a system we’ve already tried in our 2015 Xtrainer and everyone loves it. The system also reduces the consumption of oil and consequently the total cost of usage. So it’s saving you money too. Added to that it has a positive impact to the environment, which will help us a lot in the future with Euro 4 or Euro 5 homologation rules.”

Like it's predecessor regulations, Euro 1, 2, and 3, Euro 4 specifies allowable emission levels and testing methods but doesn't specify how manufactures innovate and modify to comply.  Beta chooses their own strategy, as do the other manufacturers.  Whatever KTM and Sherco are doing has nothing to do with Beta.

 

[firffighter]

The quote does not directly state the OI was instituted as the definitive result to Euro emmisions now in effect , but that's the 1st piece of hard evidence anyone has put forth that Beta chose OI to begin the process of complying,  so thanks. I appreciate someone finally putting some hard evidence here to digest rather than unverified claims. 

Yes, each of the European manufacturers are responsible for their own compliance,  yet Sherco (France), KTM (Austria), and GasGas (Spain) are all selling and importing 2-strokes with no modifications to meet emissions standards.  Maybe they're all coming excessively lean from manufacturer to meet compliance?  This doesn't seem to be the case as I test rode a freshly imported '17 TE300 last September, but maybe the U.S. models are not as lean as Euro showroom models.  

Only time will ultimately tell how the European manufacturers will meet full compliance. 

 

 

[GP]

1 hour ago, firffighter said:

Where's your proof of this claim? 

Sherco and KTM are selling their 2 stroke in Europe no OI, but you keep repeating that Beta is restricted by Euro 4. 

BTW, a simple Sudco .07 needle and some fine tuning with your pilot jet and AS do wonders on these Betas.  

Pull out an old GG parts manual and you will find similar jetting, an intake restrictor, and a catalyst equipped pipe.  Nothing new, been happening for years as said, just gets progressively tighter in spec.

[GP]

4 minutes ago, firffighter said:

The quote does not directly state the OI was instituted as the definitive result to Euro emmisions now in effect , but that's the 1st piece of hard evidence anyone has put forth that Beta chose OI to begin the process of complying,  so thanks. I appreciate someone finally putting some hard evidence here to digest rather than unverified claims. 

Yes, each of the European manufacturers are responsible for their own compliance,  yet Sherco (France), KTM (Austria), and GasGas (Spain) are all selling and importing 2-strokes with no modifications to meet emissions standards.  Maybe they're all coming excessively lean from manufacturer to meet compliance?  This doesn't seem to be the case as I test rode a freshly imported '17 TE300 last September, but maybe the U.S. models are not as lean as Euro showroom models.  

Only time will ultimately tell how the European manufacturers will meet full compliance. 

 

 

An unverified claim in this case is publicly available information that you simply missed. Also, realize that no one rides the bikes like this, they would not function anywhere near adequately.  I don't know the details of dealing with the changes but it is done. It also doesn't apply to US model 2strokes, as they are not homologated here anyway.   Think its just more bullshit?  Ask one of our Euro members to clarify.

[firffighter]

22 minutes ago, GP said:

An unverified claim in this case is publicly available information that you simply missed. Also, realize that no one rides the bikes like this, they would not function anywhere near adequately.  I don't know the details of dealing with the changes but it is done. It also doesn't apply to US model 2strokes, as they are not homologated here anyway.   Think its just more bullshit?  Ask one of our Euro members to clarify.

Your continued insults and defections are your default mode anytime someone challenges you on your claims.  It's par for the course with you and I expect these types of responses as you have a long history here demonstrating exactly this type of behavior which resulted in shutting down the last thread rather than participating in a mature discussion.  

Why do you get so defensive when objective questions are asked? Are you incapable of a discussion where something you claimed or stated is challenged? 

I think it's a fair discussion to take regarding Beta OI as a compliance to Euro emmisions vs other European manufacturers who have seemingly not made any significant or viable changes to meet current standards. Would you care to discuss or just keep up the ego war? 

Edited December 5, 2017 by firffighter

[GP]

2 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Your continued insults and defections are your default mode anytime someone challenges you on your claims.  It's par for the course with you and I expect these types of responses as you have a long history here demonstrating exactly this type of behavior which resulted in shutting down the last thread rather than participating in a mature discussion.  

Why do you get so defensive when objective questions are asked? Are you incapable of a discussion where something you claimed or stated is challenged? 

Just curious why you default to insults?  

I think it's a fair discussion the take regarding Beta OI as a compliance to Euro emmisions vs other European manufacturers who have seemingly not made any significant or viable changes to meet current standards. Would you care to discuss or just keep up the ego war? 

Insults?  Seriously?  All stated was truth, you missed the ball, that interview was common knowledge 2 years ago.  You just like to debate, or argue perhaps, despite obvious facts.  Thats fine, I'm not insulted by it.  

Read the bold txt in wwguy's quote.  It means that they will need it in the future as part of a compliance package.  For sure if they go to a TPI system.  

All that said, it means nothing to us now, until a compliant design is the only one mfg. and we are stuck with it as well (no USA models).  Really, it would be good to hear from a European member on exactly what happens there from sale, registration, modification, etc.  It could vary by country I have no idea.

[motoxgiant]

The ultra restricted intake (for noise) and exhaust, along with really tiny rear sprockets (to limit acceleration) and lean jetting are part and parcel of a European dirt bikes' from-the-crate setting. Besides hydrocarbon emissions the bikes have to meet pass-by noise requirements, so choking off the flow of air and leaning out the jetting in a corresponding fashion, along with really tall gearing makes the bikes accelerate slowly and quietly. Add to that a double-walled and often catalysed pipe and you have the makings of a really dreadful dirt bike, but one that meets emissions and noise standards.

You should look at the uncrating thread that Dirtbird put together for his new Beta, or the eastern European uncratings of even the new TPi Katooms to see how different the pipes and intakes are from what we see over here. This has been going on for awhile, and affects 4Ts as well as 2Ts. MXA reported that the KX250F has one side of the airbox venting plugged in the US, but both sides in Europe. Looking back, the red-head Huskies wouldn't even run out of the crate with the parts and mapping they were delivered with.

Most woods riders I know are fairly environmentally conscious, but consider this ... it's said that one freighter carrying  bikes from Japan to the US west coast will produce more emissions in a single trip than all the bikes on it in a lifetime.

[firffighter]

1 hour ago, GP said:

Insults?  Seriously?  All stated was truth, you missed the ball, that interview was common knowledge 2 years ago.  

I'm used to your East Coast bluntness and even my sensitive Oregon liberal feelings are hard to hurt. I'll try to toughen up, I promise.  

The obscure interview being common knowledge I'm not so sure about. Just look at the number of confused posters not sure what to do or what to make of the OI. That's why I believe it's important to have open dialogue on issues, not assume everyone is in the know, as you know what happens when you assume! 

1 hour ago, motoxgiant said:

The ultra restricted intake (for noise) and exhaust, along with really tiny rear sprockets (to limit acceleration) and lean jetting are part and parcel of a European dirt bikes' from-the-crate setting. Besides hydrocarbon emissions the bikes have to meet pass-by noise requirements, so choking off the flow of air and leaning out the jetting in a corresponding fashion, along with really tall gearing makes the bikes accelerate slowly and quietly. Add to that a double-walled and often catalysed pipe and you have the makings of a really dreadful dirt bike, but one that meets emissions and noise standards.

You should look at the uncrating thread that Dirtbird put together for his new Beta, or the eastern European uncratings of even the new TPi Katooms to see how different the pipes and intakes are from what we see over here. This has been going on for awhile, and affects 4Ts as well as 2Ts. MXA reported that the KX250F has one side of the airbox venting plugged in the US, but both sides in Europe. Looking back, the red-head Huskies wouldn't even run out of the crate with the parts and mapping they were delivered with.

Most woods riders I know are fairly environmentally conscious, but consider this ... it's said that one freighter carrying  bikes from Japan to the US west coast will produce more emissions in a single trip than all the bikes on it in a lifetime.

This is great information and helps paint the picture of what consumers are dealing with.  What will be fascinating to see is how the U.S. market responds. Will  riders and dealers kick and scream at the changes coming or adapt and realize this is how it's going to be. Us older guys have already gone through the 4-stroke revolution and FI.  Some were able to adapt and make mods to the bikes to make it work for them. Some just complained and rode old outdated technology for years claiming that their heavy old steed was superior. 

For instance,  Husky released the FI in '08 as you mentioned.  KTM RFS came with canister and smog control in '07. Yamaha plugged WR's for years.  In all of those cases. Dealers and owners were able to adapt,  make the necessary mods to enjoy years of riding.  

Only time will tell how the response will be over the next several years as 2-strokes enter the U.S. market with restrictions. I'm sure we'll get the requisite complainers and those who will refuse to be flexible or adapt and will keep riding older bikes.  Most will figure out how to make the bikes work for them, move on and accept the reality that is change.  

[motoxgiant]

Here's one for you, from the pages of ktmtalk.com

"I have a 300 EXC 6 day TPI - coming from a 350 XCF. The bikes is pure brillance, I think this guys has not had the bike setup correctly from the dealer. My dealer told me it takes them 5 hours to do all the mapping and restriction changes."

Tightening emission standards and the introduction of technology like FI usher in a brave new world, but it won't all be fun.