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Posted (edited)

 I thought you guys would be more interested in the upside down fork flex since it is directly related to the unusual wear that some are seeing. I'm not 100% convinced that the quality of the anodizing or coating is the only issue there, flex characteristics play into the equation as well. Just look at all the different "shapes" of upper fork legs amongst the different bikes and suspension manufacturers over the years.

 I've always been of the opinion that bigger is better for 3 reasons, less flex causing binding and a larger internal air/oil volume which makes for a more gradual (smooth) bottoming and more overlap with the same amount of travel due to the additional length at the bottom. It was Maico who did it first (and very well).

I've always wanted to do a single supplemental air reservoir feeding from both forks to increase the air capacity, similar to these Enzo's, only with just one tank and a cleaner setup. Just never found the time. service_subtank.jpg

 

Currently the 52mm WP's which are unobtainable to the common man (unless you find some used ones which you won't be able to buy parts for) and have been the standard issue Austria Inc. factory team equipment in offroad and MX/SX for over 10 years now and are the largest out there. There success in racing speaks for itself.

 In the Day of the conventional forks, there were really only 2 big boys that were made at the end of that era, the WP 50mm's (Magnum or Extreme's they were called) on the KTM's and the Showa 50mm's on the Suzuki's. I only experienced the WP's on my '99 KTM which I kept for 10 years they worked so well that everything I ride to this day is still a bit short of how plush and never harsh as those were. I did only a few minor things to them and they worked on all types of terrain with barely a clicker change. I always read the great reviews on the Showa's, and if I recall a few teams and people are still mounting those things onto current bikes (maybe JCR's Baja guy's?). Much like aluminum frames, upside down forks became a must for the showroom it you wanted to be buying a "modern" bike. Showroom progress, not racetrack. I'm sure the weight was a non factor, the only drawback was the lower fork legs getting caught in deep ruts sometimes (especially if you were the only one running them). There certainly weren't anywhere near as many blown forks seals in those days.

I have often wondered if the KYB forks that are so well respected are so good because of the valving (since you can revalve anything) or the legs?

1999 KTM was the last year for the WP's

ktm300exc1999.jpg

 

1998 Suzuki was their last year for the Showa's

1998_RM250_yellow_520.jpg

 

Maico was the originator. This 1981 may have been the best bike ever built. It took all I had to pass one at Rio Bravo MX a few years back.

maico__490_1981_1_lgw.jpg

So yes, we may have had better suspension available 20 years ago than we do today?

Edited by Johnny Depp

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Have you rode a modern day bike with 50mm+ forks? I had two Husqvarna that had Marzocchi 50mm forks and even after a revalve were harsh from being too ridged. There was no give anywhere. 52mm forks would be brutally stiff for anyone not slamming stuff at incredible speeds. In this case bigger is not better for 99% of us.

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On 12/19/2017 at 2:37 PM, Johnny Depp said:

Disclaimer here: I have been very happy with my 2015 Sachs open cartridge forks with normal setup and no re-valving. The sky is not falling for me. I am well aware that Beta is the current EnduroGP champion on what appears to be stock forks. It is also worth noting that Beta now offers a variety of "Factory" upgrades through BYOB or direct.

  It seems the knock on the Sachs is the standard setup in some cases, and the lack of accessible replacement parts and knowledge when you get deep into them, and some reports of premature wear in the upper legs (the jury is out on this) which appears to have been addressed on '18's. The level of technology on the Sachs is limited with no current usage of coatings or more complex valving systems, which also places them at a lower price point. The question for many has been whether to upgrade the Sachs (with a question mark on upper leg durability) or just start over with something else.

Several years after Sachs took the place of the Marzocchi's in the Race Editions, there is a much larger knowledge base and many things have been tried, from complete swaps to Frankenforks which are a combination of components from several types of forks. There are several complete aftermarket replacement solutions and a multitude of tuners.

 Most recently, the realization that Beta Sachs fork lugs will fit on KYB lower tubes has created the ability to keep the offset and spacing (and front wheel) and triple clamps OEM. http://www.betarider.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2601 The solution creates a new problem in that the internals don't match up from KYB's to the Beta Sachs lugs. The solution so far has been Dal Soggio Sphere internals https://www.dalsoggiorace.com/sphere-hydraulic-cartridge/ which turns into a higher dollar project approaching/exceeding the cost of replacement forks.

 I recently came across a new offering (on ADV Rider) that offers another solution to offering closed cartridge complete kits that come at a reasonable price point of $900. At this price point it is just below Ohlins cartridges or a new set of Sachs CC's, and likely about the same as a full BYOB pro kit https://www.betausa.com/byob/RS/3237/3/#byob-beta-thumbs . There is a dizzying array of choices of how to go about improving front end performance, and one of the reasons is that it is one of the most effective ways to increase overall performance. There is little discussion about the Sachs shocks which seem to have less doubt about them. Since the RR-S models come with OC forks, this is obviously a potential solution for them, and then the price difference between the Racing Editions with the CC's and which model to choose becomes a new question.

This link is to https://www.endurospec.com/store/p30/MXT/Enduro_Spec_Sachs_Cartridge_System.html although MX Tech is the supplier, their website gives less description than what is found here. This kit should be available through any dealer through MX Tech https://mx-tech.com/  N2Dirt https://www.n2dirt.net/ has it  their site also (for KTM's solutions).

A previous thread mentioned these were coming soon

For comparison here is a photo of each.

Sachs-Beta-CC-Fork-1__48714.1485733836.5

 

ohlins%20cartridge1_0.jpg

 

dal.jpg.4e6cb7fcdcaae6c59fd86e6ec774da6f.jpg

 

mxtech.thumb.jpg.5f63d36a7988991cad94f6f8a6b14ddb.jpg

These kits don't come with springs, although the standard springs fit. The MXT kit started as a CC kit for KTM/Husky's with the OC XPLR fork and a spring kit for AER's.

The value equation on MXT's goes up when you realize they come standard with Huck valves and Leaf Spring Midvalves, both of which alone are offered as an upgrade to other forks for about $450.

Suspension is a very gray area subject, there is no definite right or wrong. There are many reviews with differing opinions on the same subject, setting can mean everything.

I hope to see more discussion of technical solutions in a thread that won't be derailed if we are discussing Beta Forks.

 

You cover alot in a first post. 

In the simplest terms..

Beta has so many options for forks it’s crazy.

 It’s more than any bike Ive ever seen . .

. and right from the factory Beta is the only company offering custom suspension tuning of a variety of forks. 

The whole fork issue is so overblown is also kind of ridiculous to me. 

The old bike vids posted with old suspension from Craigslist bought racing new bikes sort of illustrate this to a point.  Really...a guy buys an old bike off cl  no suspension even serviced and lines up against Tim Ferry in expert class??? What an almost 30 yr old bike almost beats a whole lineup of the newest and best bikes now racing a monster mx course????

The thing is just about everyone isn’t racing mx with their Beta... well maybe some.. It’s middle age average riders riding trails and racing trail races here. Got some  good fast guys and got some novice and older got some ex expert maybe? Maybe some pros here and there..

We have an almost endless amount of level of resources now that weren’t available in the past as far as suspension choices.   It’s just what do you want.. sky’s the limit it seems.

What sort of makes me chuckle is in 2008 2009 Beta didn’t even have a website.. had mainly  basically 2 models of bike with rfs motors... a 450 and 525 rr and rs.  There was only 300 Beta enduros coming into USA.  There was almost no aftermarket. I had to get a Scotts kx450 rear disc guard and take it to the machine shop to have a rear disc guard. My how times have changed. It’s really interesting how incredibly fast Beta has grown from a tiny little import enduro bike and how the expectations have grown aswell. The first website was just a Beta owner who threw up a site just so Beta owners would have a place to share info. There’s been about 8 or so Beta sites and most have crashed and burned. The majority of Beta guys came to TT to the exotics section when the last Betatalk site died when at Getdirty. 

I just find it interesting how quick Beta has evolved.. It’s been a meteoric rise that I can’t seem to remember has happened with any other brand. Maybe Husky in the 60s to 70s???

 

http://betamotorcycles.net/

what a difference in just a few years. What other brand has advanced so quickly?? Can you name one? I don’t think there’s any.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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Since this is the Beta fork diaries maybe a listing of what has been the forks to start

 

http://www.betausa.com/content/enduro-model-history

and what options are from Beta now.

https://betausa.com/content/beta-suspension

Then add all the other bunches of choices for suspension for Beta from other companies/ aftermarket..

 

 

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You cover alot in a first post. 
In the simplest terms..
Beta has so many options for forks it’s crazy.
 It’s more than any bike Ive ever seen . .
. and right from the factory Beta is the only company offering custom suspension tuning of a variety of forks. 
The whole fork issue is so overblown is also kind of ridiculous to me. 
The old bike vids posted with old suspension from Craigslist bought racing new bikes sort of illustrate this to a point.  Really...a guy buys an old bike off cl  no suspension even serviced and lines up against Tim Ferry in expert class??? What an almost 30 yr old bike almost beats a whole lineup of the newest and best bikes now racing a monster mx course????
The thing is just about everyone isn’t racing mx with their Beta... well maybe some.. It’s middle age average riders riding trails and racing trail races here. Got some  good fast guys and got some novice and older got some ex expert maybe? Maybe some pros here and there..
We have an almost endless amount of level of resources now that weren’t available in the past as far as suspension choices.   It’s just what do you want.. sky’s the limit it seems.
What sort of makes me chuckle is in 2008 2009 Beta didn’t even have a website.. had mainly  basically 2 models of bike with rfs motors... a 450 and 525 rr and rs.  There was only 300 Beta enduros coming into USA.  There was almost no aftermarket. I had to get a Scotts kx450 rear disc guard and take it to the machine shop to have a rear disc guard. My how times have changed. It’s really interesting how incredibly fast Beta has grown from a tiny little import enduro bike and how the expectations have grown aswell. The first website was just a Beta owner who threw up a site just so Beta owners would have a place to share info. There’s been about 8 or so Beta sites and most have crashed and burned. The majority of Beta guys came to TT to the exotics section when the last Betatalk site died when at Getdirty. 
I just find it interesting how quick Beta has evolved.. It’s been a meteoric rise that I can’t seem to remember has happened with any other brand. Maybe Husky in the 60s to 70s???
 
http://betamotorcycles.net/
what a difference in just a few years. What other brand has advanced so quickly?? Can you name one? I don’t think there’s any.
 
 
 
 
 
 

I wouldn't be surprised if Gas Gas sees the same level of rise like beta did. They are really piloting the $$ into their brand and they have KYB. Just saying.
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21 minutes ago, brysonrs said:


I wouldn't be surprised if Gas Gas sees the same level of rise like beta did. They are really piloting the $$ into their brand and they have KYB. Just saying.

Maybe? But alot of good companies have gone belly up. Husqvarna Cagiva Gasgas Ossa Bultaco  etc.. Beta being around for a hundred years or so shows some longevity. I got a gasgas 300 that I can barely give away. Good bike but the company went out of business once and got bought out by an electric bike company. Time will tell. I hope it’s successful. I just wont hold my breath. I waited for Honda to bring back 2 strokes and Honda is way more resilient than Gasgas. &%$#@!ers did end up pointing me back to european 2 stroke enduros in Beta so it did end ok.. was going to ktm at first after my local gasgas dealer went out of business.. got a used 300 ec Gasgas before Beta. Gee what makes me doubt Gasgas??? It’s like vegas.. roll that dice.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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4 hours ago, weantright said:

Have you rode a modern day bike with 50mm+ forks? I had two Husqvarna that had Marzocchi 50mm forks and even after a revalve were harsh from being too ridged. There was no give anywhere. 52mm forks would be brutally stiff for anyone not slamming stuff at incredible speeds. In this case bigger is not better for 99% of us.

Let's agree to disagree on this. Whenever a factory has something special that their team wins on and won't sell to the public or make standard equipment, it just makes me want it more.

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1 hour ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Since this is the Beta fork diaries maybe a listing of what has been the forks to start

 

http://www.betausa.com/content/enduro-model-history

and what options are from Beta now.

https://betausa.com/content/beta-suspension

Then add all the other bunches of choices for suspension for Beta from other companies/ aftermarket..

 

 

You have no idea how much shit I have stirred up over at VitalMX this week. The traffic is over 10x this site, so when you post, there can be 10 responses in an hour, today I got a thread going with 30 responses in 3 hours. I share the Beta kool aid over there and have been splashing it all around to the point that I have become annoying about it. They started insulting the brand and I pounded back. Here, join the fun.

https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Will-the-big-4-ever-make-a-350,1335373 A stealth Beta thread, not in the title, but Oh boy.

https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Do-XC-models-work-for-MX,1335433  This one was to prove out a theory.

https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/What-makes-landing-ramps-so-neccesary,1335510 Again an insult responded to in kind.

There's more, ask if you want to know about the Seely crash..

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19 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

Let's agree to disagree on this. Whenever a factory has something special that their team wins on and won't sell to the public or make standard equipment, it just makes me want it more.

Well I have my ex C.Webb endurocross bike that went to a local expert for mx racing. I bought it and it has a 50mm zokes fork and it works awesome. Im not racing mx with it either. That 12’ 350 race edition handles awesome. It’s got a little different feel than other forks..less flex but it’s still super plush. My suspension guy just serviced it . I don’t think he did any special tuning at all.. just service.maybe I’m just lucky?? I don’t think so. That fork has been on a bunch of race editions.. If it didn’t work right all Id do is just bring itback to my tuner..I won’t.

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25 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

You have no idea how much shit I have stirred up over at VitalMX this week. The traffic is over 10x this site, so when you post, there can be 10 responses in an hour, today I got a thread going with 30 responses in 3 hours. I share the Beta kool aid over there and have been splashing it all around to the point that I have become annoying about it. They started insulting the brand and I pounded back. Here, join the fun.

https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Will-the-big-4-ever-make-a-350,1335373 A stealth Beta thread, not in the title, but Oh boy.

https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Do-XC-models-work-for-MX,1335433  This one was to prove out a theory.

https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/What-makes-landing-ramps-so-neccesary,1335510 Again an insult responded to in kind.

There's more, ask if you want to know about the Seely crash..

Well you are a bigger pot stirrer than I am. :smirk: 

You throw a bunch of topics out at a time. I just stick to a certain one and stick to it till all the info available is out. Some don’t care for it but it’s good to get clear true info. 

Im scared to look at what you threw in the punch bowl at vital :lol:. Hey just that first post here has some options Ive not seen before. Thanks.

Hey I just read the first post you put..

I do agree somewhat that other 350 brands can work in mx.  But you know :smirk: 

Its called Vital MX 

Beta and other brands with 350 are enduro bikes. Sure they can race mx.   Gary Jones smoked the troops on a 350 rr at the vet mx races a couple years ago. It’s just not sold as an mx bike primarily... hence your pot stirring capab:lol:ility 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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I forgot... that Gary Jones raced a 350 rr enduro in a vet pro mx class and smoked everyone to a 1 and 1 motos win on Open chamber Sachs forks:lol: plus he had the classic black tape number of the letter number “y”. Perfect.. love the Y! :smirk:

 

https://motocrossactionmag.com/rem-glen-helen-race-report-confession-of-a-local-yokel

 

Shit! I better check out his trick OC sachs fork setup!!! When I hit 60 in a couple years maybe I’ll go back and race old man class in the expert class again. I’ll go off my blood thinners for the day.. I got a 350 race.. oh shit got the zokes 50 cc. I can’t copy Gary Jones!!!:smirk:

The bikes too advanced!!!

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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9 minutes ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I forgot... that Gary Jones raced a 350 rr enduro in a vet pro mx class and smoked everyone to a 1 and 1 motos win on Open chamber Sachs forks:lol: plus he had the classic black tape number of the letter number “y”. Perfect.. love the Y! :smirk:

 

https://motocrossactionmag.com/rem-glen-helen-race-report-confession-of-a-local-yokel

 

Shit! I better check out his trick OC sachs fork setup!!! When I hit 60 in a couple years maybe I’ll go back and race old man class in the expert class again. I’ll go off my blood thinners for the day.. I got a 350 race.. oh shit got the zokes 50 cc. I can’t copy Gary Jones!!!:smirk:

You saw my disclaimer at the beginning. I'm not a hater on Sachs, but if I had a pocket full of money I'd sure build me something special before I'm too old to enjoy it. YOLO. Bucket list is all it is. Moto guys jibber jabbering online. Don't take it personal.

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I just realized, I'm probably out of the cool kids club for chatting with you so much. I don't know how I'll sleep.

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1 hour ago, Johnny Depp said:

I just realized, I'm probably out of the cool kids club for chatting with you so much. I don't know how I'll sleep.

Yea oh shit Depp.. sorry Im blowing your cover.  Don’t be too honest like me. Some don’t like that. :smirk: . It’s funny. All the cool kids weren’t around for the 8 or more Beta sites that have come and gone since 2008. There’s only a couple around since the beginning..I miss some of the old guys. Knowledgeable helpful  and straightforward. Only some are that way now. 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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Johnny I only read your first post on vital mx first thread (later Iwill read it all as it looks entertaining). 

Here is a small correction.

The first modern 350 was offered By Beta in 2011. While KTM was also testing this displacement (remember few stories that Cairoli was race testing the 350), it wasn't before 2012 MY that went on sale. I am 100 % about that for the off road models EXC, XC, XCW and I think the same goes for the SX models. 

 

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1 hour ago, dirtbird said:

Johnny I only read your first post on vital mx first thread (later Iwill read it all as it looks entertaining). 

Here is a small correction.

The first modern 350 was offered By Beta in 2011. While KTM was also testing this displacement (remember few stories that Cairoli was race testing the 350), it wasn't before 2012 MY that went on sale. I am 100 % about that for the off road models EXC, XC, XCW and I think the same goes for the SX models. 

 

Yea that’s right.. Beta came out with a 350 before ktm..I don’t think it was a full year before ktm but Beta got the first 350s out.  I remember it seemed like everyone was trying to convince me of the less rotating mass theory that a 350 would be much better than my big bore 525 4t. Or a 450rr. I like the more torque. That was the conversation here then but in a couple years the 300 rr would be the goto bike... and I still hooked myself into buying  a 350rr later anyway. I still don’t buy the rotating mass deal as much. 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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10 hours ago, dirtbird said:

Johnny I only read your first post on vital mx first thread (later Iwill read it all as it looks entertaining). 

Here is a small correction.

The first modern 350 was offered By Beta in 2011. While KTM was also testing this displacement (remember few stories that Cairoli was race testing the 350), it wasn't before 2012 MY that went on sale. I am 100 % about that for the off road models EXC, XC, XCW and I think the same goes for the SX models. 

 

This is true maybe for the USA but not in Europe where KTM had a 350sx in 2011. 2010 KTM also race tested the 350sx. XC, XCF-W and EXC followed a year later which would be 2012 timeframe. I don't think either brands copied or tried to out do each other. Does it really make a differences who started the class??

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, weantright said:

This is true maybe for the USA but not in Europe where KTM had a 350sx in 2011. 2010 KTM also race tested the 350sx. XC, XCF-W and EXC followed a year later which would be 2012 timeframe. I don't think either brands copied or tried to out do each other. Does it really make a differences who started the class??

Not really but it doesn't hurt either to be historically correct. 

Moreover I think that both brands could wait one more year as both bikes had some problems.... 

Edit: Back to the forks.... A summary 

It seems that the KYB route is the most cost-effective for US but in Europe availability is not that great. But I do have a set sitting on the shelf. A project for the future? Still trying to figure.... 

Mxtech luckies, I am sure that they will work much better than oem's and have more tuning capability but they are still an open cartridge design. 

TTXs, they may work for some and not for others but personally I don't like their design which is troublesome at best... Modular 2 piece compression piston and a shim stack that is using an oring to keep shims in place? No thank you. 

And finally the DS Sphere.... Which it seems that is quite expensive in the US but not in Europe, 930 euros plus national  tax (VAT) and another 30-40 for shipping. Way better build quality and no need for specific springs if you already have the correct rate. 

I think that also WP cone valve carts are available but they are certainly more expensive (about 1700 euros plus the exoenses) and they have a reputation that is difficult to tune for average riders. Having said that, I do have serviced some old complete CV forks that still are working fine. The problem seems to be the original supplied setting... Also WP has announced that new lines for aftermarket will be available in the future. 

Edited by dirtbird
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10 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Yea that’s right.. Beta came out with a 350 before ktm..I don’t think it was a full year before ktm but Beta got the first 350s out.  I remember it seemed like everyone was trying to convince me of the less rotating mass theory that a 350 would be much better than my big bore 525 4t. Or a 450rr. I like the more torque. That was the conversation here then but in a couple years the 300 rr would be the goto bike... and I still hooked myself into buying  a 350rr later anyway. I still don’t buy the rotating mass deal as much. 

Less rotating mass at a higher rpm equals the same too me. Low RPM big bores is a big factor.

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