Are we indirectly killing the sport that we love?

[SlowDinoDog]

So...if it has to be less expensive, require less space, be convenient, be less complex to maintain...then the future of riding on two wheels may be smaller electric bikes on 'urban size' courses and layouts.

 

[mx_forever]

The golden days were the early to mid 70's. Hodaka's, Suzuki TC's, TS's (which made about as much noise as a mouse fart!) and some Jap bikes were dirt cheap and there were places to ride in almost every neighborhood. It seems every riding spot had a name. Now those riding spots have been bulldozed with houses on them. We had a half dozen moto tracks back in the day that you could ride on anytime. Now their all gone but one and they don't have practice days. Oh, and that track is two hours away.

You had to live in that time to have believed it. So many guys I knew had a Suzuki TC/TS or Hodaka's. All riding in their own neighborhood. They were so inexpensive kids got them for Christmas. People don't understand the magnitude of dirt bike sales in the early seventies. I read that Suzuki sold over a million of the TC/TS's. They were everywhere!

As for motocross. The tracks might have been flat with small jumps back in the day but it was still banging bars competition. When the double jumps started showing up in the late seventies I quit. Even Bob Hannah said the jumps started scaring him. I raced every Sunday for four years and only got a bloody nose! When the huge doubles showed up kids were being paralyzed for life. That has not been a rare occurrence. 

I remember seeing my first dirt bike that cost over $2000. It was the first Husqvarna 360 auto. Now the new KTM 250 TPI two stroke is over $10,000!

There are still very affordable entry level dirt bikes for kids. But if a kid in my neighborhood got one for Christmas there would be no place for him to ride it in the neighborhood.

That is the number one difference between then and now. Places to ride ride in your own neighborhood. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by mx_forever

[BOAB]

Around here you can travel no more than 5 minutes and ride, I ride out my back door, we're surrounded by 1.6 million acres of BLM land.  But, it seems that kids don't want to, I see very few teens riding anymore.  Price, video games, lazy, or a combination of things.

[Muffintop]

Inflation and advancement of R&D will always make things more expensive. Same with anything else though, business is so cut throat these days every company is looking to shave cost anywhere possible. Notice how the new 2 stroke KTM's no longer come with V Force reeds? Now it's a piece of plastic made in house that doesn't work worth a crap.  People still buy them though so who the hell cares I guess.

 

I wish we had more land ride on, I know we are better off here in the US than some places but it seems like the tree huggers are always eager to ban dirtbikes from wide open spaces. Hell slick rock trail was founded by motorcyclists, now its full of smug mountain bikers.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Muffintop

[MaybeMe]

9 minutes ago, mx_forever said:

The golden days were the early to mid 70's. Hodaka's, Suzuki TC's, TS's (which made about as much noise as a mouse fart!) and some Jap bikes were dirt cheap and there were places to ride in almost every neighborhood. It seems every riding spot had a name. Now those riding spots have been bulldozed with houses on them. We had a half dozen moto tracks back in the day that you could ride on anytime. Now their all gone but one and they don't have practice days. Oh, and that track is two hours away.

You had to live in that time to have believed it. So many guys I knew had a Suzuki TC/TS or Hodaka's. All riding in their own neighborhood. They were so inexpensive kids got them for Christmas. People don't understand the magnitude of dirt bike sales in the early seventies. I read that Suzuki sold over a million of the TC/TS's. They were everywhere!

As for motocross. The tracks might have been flat with small jumps back in the day but it was still banging bars competition. When the double jumps started showing up in the late seventies I quit. Even Bob Hannah said the jumps started scaring him. I raced every Sunday for four years and only got a bloody nose! When the huge doubles showed up kids were being paralyzed for life. That has not been a rare occurrence. 

I remember seeing my first dirt bike that cost over $2000. It was the first Husqvarna 360 auto. Now the new KTM 250 TPI two stroke is over $10,000!

There are still very affordable entry level dirt bikes for kids. But if a kid in my neighborhood got one for Christmas there would be no place for him to ride it in the neighborhood.

That is the number one difference between then and now. Places to ride ride in your own neighborhood. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m on the older cusp of this “young” generation and the biggest thing that drives me away from dirtbikes and MX is the prices and lack of areas to ride. 

The only way I can dream of getting a new bike is with financing. Past all the other bills and necessary expenses, it’s very hard to justify dropping at least $7k on a new bike. That’s almost 20% of my yearly income! That’s unreal. And outrighteous. I don’t even know if the motorcycle industry IS to blame, it could be the job market, maybe underpaid, or who knows and there’s nothing anyone can do in the industry to fix it. It’s how society is these days and prices are constantly rising for everything. 

I realistically believe that yeah, a KTM can be worth $10k. The R&D and all associated prices such as labor, supply prices, and time, I don’t blame them because they have to recoup their costs. That’s how a business works. I find it hard to believe anyone could realistically build a new full-size bike for less than $7k.

There’s plenty of evidence that manufacturers are still trying to recoup costs. The RMZ450 remained the same for a several years, which is fair because Suzuki hasn’t done well compared to others since around 2008. They can’t afford to dump money into their MX divison if it isn’t doing well. Same goes for the DRZ! 

YZ line-up has been the same for more than A DECADE! I’m sure they’ve made their money back, but they have to afford their four-strokes, so it would only make sense to keep selling the same bike when you can use it to fund another. There’s a reason they are mostly in the top 3 of shootouts among the mags, not that it’s worth anything. Yamaha has been making big leaps in four-stroke and I highly doubt it’s cheap. But then again, that’s a damn smart business model. 

The point is that everyone in our industry needs to make money, it’s not a business if you’re losing it. Prices are down, companies innovate less. It’s how it work. That translates to us, the consumers, because we want more innovation, at a cheap price. Dirtbikes have come a long way since the 90s, and the prices have steadily risen from it. As a 20 year-old, it’s hard to justify that price sometimes when all I’ve seen is innovation in my life and when it comes to dirtbikes, it’s a serious decision to spend $9k for the latest and greatest.

Onto the second part of my rant...

Riding places.

There aren’t enough. Plain and simple. Houses and entire neighborhoods spring up in a year and slowly cuts off any riding area. If you live in a growing state, then riding is slowly cut off. That’s not even counting laws and insurance these days.

In my state of Massachusetts, there are maybe what? 4 OHV land areas to ride in? And they are far and few as well. I don’t race, but there’s a few tracks, except the closest to me is an hour, which doesn’t sound appealing to me if I can’t practice without a trip. There’s no where to ride, except privately owned land with permission, or random land that isn’t developed on. 

Even with permission, you can be sure your insurance company will go after the owner’s, even if you don’t want them to. You gotta think: why would I let anyone else ride my land where if they are injured, or even killed, that I will be at fault. 

With random land, you always fear the EPA Nazis will pop out of nowhere to give you tickets for having an unregistered bike as well as noise and other fines. They can IMPOUND YOUR BIKE, for riding land in the middle of nowhere.

Definitely not something anyone has to deal with, not when you could be ticketed at a private race track or even with your bike in you bed on the way there. 

I’m not advocating trespassing to ride, but what happened to the day you could ride anywhere there were woods or fields, and if you weren’t allowed there, you’d be yelled at or spoken to? Now you have to worry about the police being called and you facing criminal charges because you are a “nuisance”, along with those costs. I’m not saying you should rip across a farmer’s field or someone’s backyard, but who honestly gives a damn when you are in the middle of the woods and not hopped up on social media and inside. Kids just can’t ride dirtbikes anywhere they want anymore.

Sure, you can move to Montana or Arizona or any other state that doesn’t have to deal with these laws and other BS, but realistically, what are you going to choose? Leaving where you grew up and everything you know for a place radically different? I can tell you right now: not many. 

It’s hard to say, but it’s a dying industry that can’t save itself at the moment.

[Waz Hoare]

You can say this and you can say that. However, what kills it for me is four strokes. Two strokes just always sounded so angry, like...  even if you rode like a pussy they still sounded cool. Break your neck powerbands and lots of smoke remind you of that your still beats. Which is why I still own a kx and a pe. Long live graham noyce and the way he rode like it was his last day on earth! 

[SlowDinoDog]

no matter what I do, I always feel like a hooligan when I ride an old loud smoker.
My prediction...
A company or two comes up with an inexpensive small electric motorcycle with good enough suspension and power kids can wheelie and do stunts...jump, turn...whatever.
Maybe, something slightly bigger than a large mountain bike.
They are small enough that urban and suburban kids can have fun in large parks...they're quiet, clean...

[yz250f 78]

Lol, and they've bin saying it's been growing  

Pathetic! I'm surprised there not starting a go fund me.  

The industry is killing itself.  

The sport is killing itself. 

Just like man. We tend to destroy what is good

[NoFiddyPilot]

Do we really need big innovations & tech when the majority of riders aren't riding modern bikes to their full potential? Marketers always wants us to believe the we're riding old tech and that a new bike is going to make riding the much better. Is it? I don't think so. I'm not Mr. Motocross or Enduro Megastar. I'll never be. And, hate to say it, neither will you.

While bike pricing is not the silver bullet solution, it's part of the problem. I held my nose big time when I bought my 690 Enduro R this spring. I can afford it because I drive a 17 year old SUV and it's more important to me that a nice truck. And, I've been smart with my money, living well within my means (mostly below), and over the years, we've done well business-wise. But, this bike needs to last because I won't be buying new for the foreseable future. A 2019 whatever isn't going to make me a better rider or make riding more fun. The fun comes from sharing the experience with your friends, the laughs, and challenging yourself. Maybe we need to get back to basics and focus on what matters. 

I'm sure that the manufacturers could ad some dimension to my assessment that I'm missing, but we need to get prices down and riding opportunities up. Unforunately, with about 8 years of a crap economy, those having kids now that couldn't afford to ride won't be teaching their kids to ride. Not sure there is any way around feeling the hit of that generational bump.

[Oldie230]

I would like to see a table of inflation adjusted and average income correlated figures for the real cost of popular class motorcycles today v's 'the good old days'.

I would not be surprised to see that they are actually cheaper now in real terms.??

[BOAB]

5 minutes ago, Oldie230 said:

I would like to see a table of inflation adjusted and average income correlated figures for the real cost of popular class motorcycles today v's 'the good old days'.

I would not be surprised to see that they are actually cheaper now in real terms.??

Even not the good old days.  If I remember correctly, the last new bike I bought was my 2003 XR250R which I still ride,  I think I paid like $2300 for it in June 2003.

Edited December 21, 2017 by cjjeepercreeper

[SnowMule]

16 minutes ago, Bryan Bosch said:

Do we really need big innovations & tech when the majority of riders aren't riding modern bikes to their full potential?

Is that really a bad thing though? 

Hop on a 10-year-old sled.  Not that "old".  Take it for a spin.  Climb a hill or two.  Throw it around in the trees.

Now pick those same lines on a new machine.  Night and day difference.  So much easier on the newer stuff.

Then pop the side panels and hood off.  While it's still fuel-injected, the maps have changed, the engine performance has changed.  New stuff burns way cleaner, you get a lot more power out of hte motor (and useable power, not lop-sided to bottom or top end). 

And all the adjustments, maintenance, etc that had to be done with the older stuff.  Now?  My Pro needed a tenth the work my 900 did every season.  The Assault i'm on now?  Haven't done anything on the engine.  Just the usual ski adjustments and setup between mountain and race track.

 

I was riding at the potential of my 900 when I got rid of it.  There were places I was taking it where it was holding me back.

My Pro changed that.  That sled was FAR more capable of going where I wanted to, than I was of getting it there.  Assault's the same, if not more so.  Track or backcountry. 

I'd rather be the weak link in the system, work to improve my skills as a rider, than be limited by the equipment i'm on. 

[yz250f 78]

That article pissed me off actually and it should to everyone on thumpertalk. 

Everyone on here buys bikes,parts, pushes product and races. 

They need to look at themselves

[Oldie230]

There are plently of very cheap and reasonably good dirt bikes out there now. Even a few from the Japanese companies.

They must be selling like hot cakes! ;-)

[podfish]

3 hours ago, Huskydog14 said:

Another point that I forgot to mention was the availability of places to actually ride,the choices are disappearing fast.if I didn't have a private area of my own to ride,the next best place is a 3 hour drive. I don't hesitate to make the drive but most wouldn't even consider it, and that is a big deal,maybe one of the biggest factors to be considered.

The other points are all true, but this may be the biggest issue. The nearest place to ride is over an hour away and is totally unfriendly to beginners.  There are a few others, ranging from two to four hours away.  So maybe the EBikes can help with this one.

[NoFiddyPilot]

11 minutes ago, SnowMule said:

Is that really a bad thing though? 

Hop on a 10-year-old sled.  Not that "old".  Take it for a spin.  Climb a hill or two.  Throw it around in the trees.

Now pick those same lines on a new machine.  Night and day difference.  So much easier on the newer stuff.

Then pop the side panels and hood off.  While it's still fuel-injected, the maps have changed, the engine performance has changed.  New stuff burns way cleaner, you get a lot more power out of hte motor (and useable power, not lop-sided to bottom or top end). 

And all the adjustments, maintenance, etc that had to be done with the older stuff.  Now?  My Pro needed a tenth the work my 900 did every season.  The Assault i'm on now?  Haven't done anything on the engine.  Just the usual ski adjustments and setup between mountain and race track.

 

I was riding at the potential of my 900 when I got rid of it.  There were places I was taking it where it was holding me back.

My Pro changed that.  That sled was FAR more capable of going where I wanted to, than I was of getting it there.  Assault's the same, if not more so.  Track or backcountry. 

I'd rather be the weak link in the system, work to improve my skills as a rider, than be limited by the equipment i'm on. 

A decade is actually pretty old considering the level of advancement possible as technological advancements in R&D has allowed. I'm talking about keeping an eye on cost vs. the tangible benefits provided. If a feature or design element adds cost that has value that a fairly small % of riders  can really access, but gives the mfr a cool marketing point, do most riders value that? I'm simply stating that bikes are damn good across the board, most riders are not maxing out the potential of the machine, so would it benefit sales by working on increasing affordibility? The money is never at the extreme ends of any market.

[podfish]

3 hours ago, Huskydog14 said:

Another point that I forgot to mention was the availability of places to actually ride,the choices are disappearing fast.if I didn't have a private area of my own to ride,the next best place is a 3 hour drive. I don't hesitate to make the drive but most wouldn't even consider it, and that is a big deal,maybe one of the biggest factors to be considered.

The other points are all true, but this may be the biggest issue. The nearest place to ride is over an hour away and is totally unfriendly to beginners.  There are a few others, ranging from two to four hours away.  So maybe the EBikes can help with this one.

[Hans Schmid]

6 hours ago, piltoyougram said:

We are in the view of a new generation. It's all about the tech. stuff. Unless the younger generation is letterly raised up on motor cycling then they have no interest. They prefer to set and text, play video games and lay around the house on a pretty sunny day? I ride in 3 different area's and I've noticed the age groups that ride are 35 and above? I do notice that the younger ones that ride are dear old Dad promoted! There also is the fear factor for the newbie that would like to get into the freedom of riding wheather on or off road. I really don't think the cost factor plays much in ones interest in getting involved? Boots helmet and a good used bike and give it a try. I've helped plenty of first time riders ride in the woods and on road also. We old timers can be the best promoters of off road and on road. Just remember how each of us got introduced!

 Ultimately, what's wrong with wanting to play with your phone?

Also, look at the options available to those that don't want to ride specifically a dirtbike. High performance quads, SXS, sleds, street-bikes, DS, etc... Many of these were available "back in the day" but never had the performance they do now... Compare a 1987 Honda Odessy to a new razor, not even close...

But a 87 CR 250 is every bit as competitive as a 07 CR 250 which is ever bit as competitive as a new Honda 250/450f....

Your old Artic Cat 70hp 440s have been replaced with 150hp 1Ms, your old Honda XL500s just can't compete in the same space as a new KTM 500exc...

Off-roading in general isn't dead, there is no way KTM could have grown if that was the case. We just have so many more toys to play with... 

[rmhrc630]

I’d say the industry is still recovering post gfc. But also that some brands are going great - look at ktm they are killing it. The japs are suffering because they are making average products and people have moved on

Witness Crf450x - not changed in 13 years!!!

[solimine]

A week ago, I got crucified for the mere suggestion of racing electric bikes.  I think it's a solution.

Meanwhile:  Social media and the new generation of kids was brought up several times.  Back in the early days of CR Hondas and DT Yamahas, the social media occurred in the hills.  Dirt bikes, horses and hikers, we all met up there.  And that was in the environs of San Francisco!  Of course it's gone now.  Those areas have been developed.  Areas once ridden by dirt bikes, now even have restrictions for hikers "no dogs.".. that's right, you can take your dog on your Saturday morning hike.  And there's newly established laws and enforcers to fine you if you do.  Ha, ha, ha,...

Things have changed.