External oil lines and cooler on honda vert 2v single motors

[Croatan]

How did they make it work?

The increase in volume of the oil system must also require more pressure to keep the upper end properly oiled. Is there a different oil pump or setup of the oil pump required. How did they pump the flow from the pressure side of the oil pump. Is the return directly to the oil sump? Here is the only picture I have found showing the right side of a RTL250. One hears of 200 series big bores having oil coolers, mainly across the pond, in GB or Europe.

 

I owned a '69 HD Shortster that had  external oil lines run to both heads, it was not really successful. I finally went back to a stock setup.

 

[socalxr]

On my XR100 we run coolers with a stock pump.  The stock pump works really.  No one ever had an issue and we used to race them in 100+ temps. 

[Chuck.]

The stock system feeds oil to three parts of the engine and uses metering orifices to regulate the flow, and they are susceptible to fouling from sludge or other debris in the oil. Even with external lines you still will need to deal with oil metering orifices.

Early 2 valve engines have a"437" Product Code marked on the oil pumps, in 95 the pump was increased in size and has about 50% more capacity. Its part number is #15100-KB5-721 and replaces all earlier pumps. I recommend using the late pump on all rebuilds. If the XRs increased pump size I'm sure that carried over to the 150/230. Several others have added a cooler and/or external lines to the head; there is an oil gallery in the case above the oil pump and in the right side cover that can be tapped into.

In the OP's picture the banjo fitting on the cylinder head is at the right end of the cam and bypasses the normal oil passage up the annular space at the right rear cylinder stud.  Common lube failure, and engine seizure,  is the journal bearing on the right end of the cam, some aftermarket cams replace the bushing with a needle bearing. Cam lobe lube is from a splash tray under the cam. Transmission main and counter shafts are pressure fed oil from the center case gallery.  The crank and centrifugal filter receives oil from the gallery in the right cover.

Oil gallery in center case, the oil pump mounts just below the crank and feds oil up to the gallery. In the upper left end of the gallery are two metering orifice to meter oil flow to the head and tranny:

Oil metering hole for the crank in the right side cover:

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Chuck.

[Doogee57]

Thanks Chuck. Your experience and insight are vast and always helpful for all of us dealing with Xr200s

[mcdirtclod]

Here's the routing on my XR200/CR125 conversion.  Handmade oil cooler slides through the frame and takes up the space where the radiators used to be.  Stock pump is more than adequate, return enters the top of the case.  Super cool, and adds oil volume.  After setting oil level at shut down, make a new mark on the dipstick after oil has drained down.  This bike was built by Keith Leighty, preeminent XR/CR craftsman.  He was putting pumped up XR motors into CR frames back in the Elsinore days, and built several bikes for Team Honda back in the day.

[Bearorso]

I built an 89 CR125 chassis XR 2 valver  in 89. Prior to that I had it in an 83 RM125 chassis.

I used the TLR250 oil pump.

 To my limited recollection, I think the rotor set and housing was at least 3mm wider - I'd assume that became the KB5 parts for the 95 on engines. It was a Very good upgrade. I used an XR250 - or perhaps it was the 400? - steering head mounted oil cooler, as I used a CR480 tank on the bike.

I've still got it - but the chassis is hanging from the wall, alongside a few other hybrid chassis ( the 83 RM125 one as well) I've made over the years. The engine is in parts directly under the computer I'm tapping on now. I used a TLR250 barrel, sleeved back to a 200 piston ( as the 249 kit pistons, well the ultra thin bore - seized too easily, so I just used the Powroll stroker kit and a Hi Comp 200 piston), and 'Big Finned' the cylinder head. Together with a del'orto 32mm pumper carb, porting, and bigger inlet valve. With a Needle roller cam , with fairly extreme flat track specs, [ it was listed as the Curtis Sparks -the trike racer - cam ]  and my own 'power bomb' type stainless exhaust system with a megaphone into a fluted core silencer, we dyno'd it at 27 /28 HP. Trouble is, it then broke the 3rd / 4th combo gear regularly, and started to snap both the main shaft and counter shafts ?......... I've had custom shafts made, but, as I said, it's in bits beneath me.

I'm on the lookout for an Electric Start 230 engine as a basis for a rebuild. My knees really don't bend enough to easily get up onto a KS lever, nowadays. 'Buttons' make things easier, especially when I'm on the side of our mountains behind my house.  It will make for a wonderful Vet racer and fun Trail bike. You could easily round up blokes with full tilt XR's Only 280s with  the XR/CR. And most of those with the 630s - but, perhaps that's down to the blokes who rode them.......? If the 4 day vintage class had gone to 89 - it's limited to 86 models - I would have pieced it back together for 2018 Cessnock 4 Day. The 83 RM chassis is just too tired to re-use, though I've almost been silly enough to get a 84 /85 RM chassis to put it all into - I loved the Floater rear suspension. 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Bearorso

[Doogee57]

  Bearorso, was that gear breakage with the XR200's 6 speed or with the ATC200X's 5 speed?

[Bearorso]

6 speed XR200 gearbox 

[Doogee57]

   Thanks bear. I've got 2 motors I'm working on. One is from a Curtis sparks 3 wheeler, the other is in my 88 xr200r. For the XR motor I'm going to bore and stroke it and am working on switching the primary gearing over to the 230's set-up so it'll put less torque thru the trans and hopefully nip problems with the 6 speed's gear breakage. I got a 230 oil pump, just for the gear, but I got the whole pump w/gear on E-bay for the price of the gear alone. I'll compare it's parts to the 200's and see what the difference is. The Sparks motor has the 3 wheelers 5 speed so I think it's stronger, wider gears will be ok.

[rmhrc630]

On 1/17/2018 at 3:17 AM, Chuck. said:

The stock system feeds oil to three parts of the engine and uses metering orifices to regulate the flow, and they are susceptible to fouling from sludge or other debris in the oil. Even with external lines you still will need to deal with oil metering orifices.

Quote

Early 2 valve engines have a"437" Product Code marked on the oil pumps, in 95 the pump was increased in size and has about 50% more capacity. Its part number is #15100-KB5-721 and replaces all earlier pumps. I recommend using the late pump on all rebuilds. If the XRs increased pump size I'm sure that carried over to the 150/230

. Several others have added a cooler and/or external lines to the head; there is an oil gallery in the case above the oil pump and in the right side cover that can be tapped into.

In the OP's picture the banjo fitting on the cylinder head is at the right end of the cam and bypasses the normal oil passage up the annular space at the right rear cylinder stud.  Common lube failure, and engine seizure,  is the journal bearing on the right end of the cam, some aftermarket cams replace the bushing with a needle bearing. Cam lobe lube is from a splash tray under the cam. Transmission main and counter shafts are pressure fed oil from the center case gallery.  The crank and centrifugal filter receives oil from the gallery in the right cover.

Oil gallery in center case, the oil pump mounts just below the crank and feds oil up to the gallery. In the upper left end of the gallery are two metering orifice to meter oil flow to the head and tranny:

Oil metering hole for the crank in the right side cover:

 

Hi Chuck

Ive acquired an 83 xr200r d for trail riding and are on a learning curve on these 2 valve motors after a lengthy period of 4 valve engine knowledge learning.

My question is would my 83 have the updated oil pump stock? I aware these 2 valve motors go back a fair ways...

If no, is it simply a bolt in if a I buy one?

 

My 83 xr200r 

 

[chadzu]

12 hours ago, rmhrc630 said:

Hi Chuck

Ive acquired an 83 xr200r d for trail riding and are on a learning curve on these 2 valve motors after a lengthy period of 4 valve engine knowledge learning.

My question is would my 83 have the updated oil pump stock? I aware these 2 valve motors go back a fair ways...

If no, is it simply a bolt in if a I buy one?

 

My 83 xr200r 

 

Since the bigger pump didn't exist in '83 it is a safe bet that you do not have the bigger pump.  The crf230f pump is bolt in.

[AMSinator]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:50 PM, Bearorso said:

it then broke the 3rd / 4th combo gear regularly, and started to snap both the main shaft and counter shafts ?......... I've had custom shafts made, but, as I said, it's in bits beneath me.

This is the issue I have had with XR218 Powroll and even just cammed, Powroll piston motor 2V 200's.

Went thru much checking and testing of parts only to determine, TOO much traction creates weak link breakage, the Transmission, same gears. 

Ted Hubbard helped me with the issue & we came up with "You are trying to get TOO much traction, and you need to pump up the tire PSI and let the rear wheel break loose and spin".

This is why My suggestions are to not use a larger tire, WHICH gives too much traction and starts breaking HIGH $$ trans parts.

Between using Amsoil Synthetic and wheel spin allowance, I haven't busted a 3rd/4th gear cluster to date.

Edited August 14, 2023 by AMSinator
spelling

[Chuck.]

For more than a decade I competed in Enduros and trail rode a lightly modded 82 XR200R engine in a RM chassis with a 18" rear and did not have a tranny problem.

For the past decade I've ridden an 01 with a Powroll 218, also with an 18" rear but with a high traction radial ply Trials tire usually at less than 10psi, sometimes as low as 4psi. The tranny has 86 TLR200 2nd and 3rd gears to even out the gaps between the first four gears. Don't know if those gears are stronger because of their different tooth profiles or the time/method of production.

So for me no tranny problems with these engines since the early 80s. However most of the riding has been in the wet PNW that often doesn't provide a lot of traction.