DRZ Motor Need Advice

[CT2]

Hey guys,

Looking for some information and advice.

 

Have a 2006 DRZ400S with 10,600km on it. Just picked it up. It had been sitting since sometime in the fall, maybe September. It started and ran for a couple minutes.

 

Run down of what I've done: took the carb out and apart, wanted to give it a clean. Found the O-rings on the float needle seat, and the main jet holder were deteriorated. The rest of the carb seemed ok. Checked the oil dip stick, smelled like gas. Makes sense, carb must have been leaking gas into the motor. When I removed the carb, there was a puddle of gas in the engine intake.

I went to check the valves, got the valve cover off, then went to take off the caps so rotate the engine and line up the timing marks, and as soon as I started unscrewing it oil, or more like gas, started coming out. Got the oil pan under it, and cracked the case oil drain bolt... a mixture of gas and oil poured out, A LOT came out... I don't know how much volume is available in the engine, but the amount of gas/oil that came out filled the entire oil catch pan, must have been 4 or more litres. Not good...

I rotated the crank and lined up the timing marks, the cam lobes seemed to be in the correct location, the lines all made sense I think. I checked the valves:

EX= 0.23mm-0.25mm

IN=0.15mm

I was able to rotate the engine with the spark plug still in... should I be able to rotate the crank with the spark plug still in? Does the auto decomp allow this, or is there an issue there?

The engine rotates, it isn't stuck or anything, however it seems that it gets a little stiff at the top of the stroke, and at some point makes a click.

Here is what I can see so far:

The cams appear to be in good condition to my untrained eye, thoughts?

Appears to be properly timed, 15 pins between teeth, little confused by the numbers on the cams, no idea what they mean. Also I'm assuming these are the stock cams, I don't think any work was done on this motor.

Looking down the intake at the intake valves. I also stuck my scope down the spark plug hole, but it was too big to get into the cylinder to see anything meaningful.

 

So, what to do next... do the cams look ok? What would the gas in the motor have possibly damaged or done? Could it have hydro locked the motor and blown something (hence turning over even with the plug on)? Best way to flush the system of the gas? Should I pull the head? I'm thinking yes just so I know whats going on in there... this would be the first real motor work I've done.

Just wanted to get some opinions. Thanks in advance!

[tnarG224]

Subbed

[bucket list]

Just put it back together with new plug and oil, it will probably fire up.

[38super]

Warm the engine with new oil/filter, maybe easy ride around the block.  Then drain and refill with fresh oil, good to go.

[Backwoods-Bomber]

All looks good. New oil and filter then ride. If it sat full of gas for a long time it might be a good idea to dump a cap full of oil down the spark plug hole and turn it over by hand a couple times before attempting to start it.

[Yanka]

4 hours ago, CT2 said:

Hey guys,

Looking for some information and advice.

[..]

I was able to rotate the engine with the spark plug still in... should I be able to rotate the crank with the spark plug still in? Does the auto decomp allow this, or is there an issue there?

No issues there, btw it works by rotating with the spark plug in ? 

4 hours ago, CT2 said:

The engine rotates, it isn't stuck or anything, however it seems that it gets a little stiff at the top of the stroke, and at some point makes a click

There is a compression when the plug is in + cams can start to open valves which makes a resistance too. Shouldn't really make a click I think, but it could be also an innocent thing.

4 hours ago, CT2 said:

 

So, what to do next... do the cams look ok? What would the gas in the motor have possibly damaged or done? Could it have hydro locked the motor and blown something (hence turning over even with the plug on)? Best way to flush the system of the gas? Should I pull the head? I'm thinking yes just so I know whats going on in there... this would be the first real motor work I've done.

Just wanted to get some opinions. Thanks in advance!

I think I would try to run it with fresh oil. There is a possibility of damaged cam journals and more if it was run with diluted oil. But it looks fine from what is visible. Anyway if it's bad, it will not add too much labor to get back to this point and if you will listen closely more likely you will hear what's not there than miss something and will not make it much worse if there is a problem. Knocks is what you don't want to hear, but then again the engine itself is noisy and sometimes you can take "normal" noise as knocks. So if not sure, run it and try to determine if there are developing knock in the engine. Also try to ask some experienced guys if they think it sounds good or not. And don't abuse it too much at the beginning.

 

Don't worry about hydrolocking, that is unlikely if it still runs. To flush it from gas, just change the oil. Some amount of gas in the oil will not harm, it will evaporate while working. The problem is when oil is diluted to the stage when it doesn't oil enough any more. If the gas leaked into oil when sitting still, just changing the oil is all there needs to be done. 

[ohiodrz400sm]

If the brass plug is still covering the fuel screw remove it, remove the fuel screw and blow compressed air into the pilot jet to clear the passage.

I went thru all the same stuff with an S I bought off eBay. There must of been an entire fuel tanks worth a fuel in the engine. After replacing the pilot and cleaning the carb it wasn't until I removed the fuel screw and blew air thru that it would run.

Factory service manual calls for 130 psi for the compression test. This value assumes the decompression release is working. I would check this before blindly disassembling the bike.

After all this and assuming you have compression, do what the others have stated and ride.

[Dune bum]

There is no off position for the fuel petcock on s/sm  models. To avoid this you could change the petcock to an E model which has an off position.

[CT2]

Thank you for all the replies, I appreciate it. They have somewhat put my mind at ease. But I have a bit more info, and maybe a couple more questions.

 

12 hours ago, Yanka said:

Don't worry about hydrolocking, that is unlikely if it still runs. To flush it from gas, just change the oil. Some amount of gas in the oil will not harm, it will evaporate while working. The problem is when oil is diluted to the stage when it doesn't oil enough any more. If the gas leaked into oil when sitting still, just changing the oil is all there needs to be done. 

Hindsight being 20/20, I wish I knew this and the motor was never started. However, before I picked it up, the previous owner started the motor in front of me (can't believe it actually started...) and it ran for maybe a minute or two at idle, then stalled out/died. This is the only thing that worries me, in regards to something possibly being damaged (rings, piston, cylinder, cams etc.). The amount of gas in the oil means that it had little to no lubricating properties at that point.

 

3 hours ago, ohiodrz400sm said:

If the brass plug is still covering the fuel screw remove it, remove the fuel screw and blow compressed air into the pilot jet to clear the passage.

Thanks for the advice. When I originally removed the carb, and cleaned it I took care of this. Cleaned all passages with carb cleaner and compressed air, as well as all jets. This is when I found the deteriorated O-rings. Removed the fuel screw and cleaned it and replaced its O-ring as well.

Now I just need to find a source for those two O-rings. According to TT OEM part finder, the float valve assembly comes as one kit (#18) for $60... and all I need is the O-ring. The other O-ring needed is #13 for the needle jet holder.

It also appears the diaphragm for the air valve cutoff (originally I thought it was an acc. pump) is in need of replacing too.

Anyone have a recommended company/website/location to get these items from?

4 hours ago, ohiodrz400sm said:

Factory service manual calls for 130 psi for the compression test. This value assumes the decompression release is working. I would check this before blindly disassembling the bike.

I will see if Parts Source has a compression tester they can lend me, and I will check this first. In regards to compression, should I be able to turn the engine over, with the spark plug in, by hand (or well small wrench) on the bolt behind the stator cover? If so, is that because of the auto decomp on the cam? How does it work, is it some sort of centrifugal actuator on the cam?

 

1 hour ago, Dune bum said:

There is no off position for the fuel petcock on s/sm  models. To avoid this you could change the petcock to an E model which has an off position.

I was aware of this, and tested the petcock. The vacuum valve appears to be working (tank has been off the bike for a few days now and isn't leaking). I think the previous owner had left it in the Prime position causing this situation...

[Backwoods-Bomber]

Thank you for all the replies, I appreciate it. They have somewhat put my mind at ease. But I have a bit more info, and maybe a couple more questions.



 





I was aware of this, and tested the petcock. The vacuum valve appears to be working (tank has been off the bike for a few days now and isn't leaking). I think the previous owner had left it in the Prime position causing this situation...

First, this is a very common problem with drz's. In almost all cases of fuel flooding the crankcase the problem is limited to the petcock, needle seat o-ring, or the needle valve itself. It is very uncommon for any other damage to occur from this situation. Most likely, your bike died after only running for a couple minutes due to the rich condition caused by the evaporation of the gas in the crankcase and no other mechanical problem exists.

Yes, the auto decomp will allow you to turn the motor over by hand with a standard 3/8" ratchet even with the spark plug in. You are correct, it is a centrifugal device that is deactivated (or activated to disengage) above 600 rpm or so.

Jetsrus.com has air cut off valves, the o Rings in question can be replaced with fuel resistant vitron o-ring purchased from an auto parts store or online very cheap.

[Aimara]

if prime is on , fuel would just continuous leak into the engine ?

[Erik Marquez]

1 hour ago, CT2 said:

Thank you for all the replies, I appreciate it. They have somewhat put my mind at ease. But I have a bit more info, and maybe a couple more questions.

 

Hindsight being 20/20, I wish I knew this and the motor was never started. However, before I picked it up, the previous owner started the motor in front of me (can't believe it actually started...) and it ran for maybe a minute or two at idle, then stalled out/died. This is the only thing that worries me, in regards to something possibly being damaged (rings, piston, cylinder, cams etc.). The amount of gas in the oil means that it had little to no lubricating properties at that point.

 

Thanks for the advice. When I originally removed the carb, and cleaned it I took care of this. Cleaned all passages with carb cleaner and compressed air, as well as all jets. This is when I found the deteriorated O-rings. Removed the fuel screw and cleaned it and replaced its O-ring as well.

Now I just need to find a source for those two O-rings. According to TT OEM part finder, the float valve assembly comes as one kit (#18) for $60... and all I need is the O-ring. The other O-ring needed is #13 for the needle jet holder.

 

[ohiodrz400sm]

if prime is on , fuel would just continuous leak into the engine ?

No, only to the carburator. If the needle and seat is working correctly then fuel will not flood into the intake. Only when the seat o-ring is compromised or the the needle and seat no longer seal can fuel leak.

[Erik Marquez]

1 hour ago, ohiodrz400sm said:

No, only to the carburator. If the needle and seat is working correctly then fuel will not flood into the intake. Only when the seat o-ring is compromised or the the needle and seat no longer seal can fuel leak.

True to a point......in a stationary, temp stable location id agree..
but add movement or vibration or wide ranging temp swings to the mix and fuel flow at the carb needle will get past it. 

[nstyle73]

Consult Erik Marquez for all future engine questions.  Also, if you rotate the engine and watch the exhaust cam for when you hear that tick, it may be the decompression mechanism.

Edited January 25, 2018 by nstyle73

[Erik Marquez]

Quote

rings are like $20 and the labor from the point you are at forward is probably an hour to disassemble and reassemble

https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/12140-29F00 Try $41 plus shipping and I can roll a DRZ in to my shop and back out in an hour for a top end R&R  but Im betting not that many on this forum will. More like 1/2 day for the average rider to remove seat, tank, valve cover, cams,  head and cylinder, clean, inspect and reassembly 

 

https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/12140-29F00 Try $41 plus shipping and I can roll a DRZ in to my shop and back out in an hour for a top end R&R  but Im betting not that many on this forum will. More like 1/2 day for the average rider to remove seat, tank, valve cover, cams,  head and cylinder, clean, inspect and reassembly 

 Yes, especially if you are hoping for a head gasket leak so you can do the repair a second time.. 

Quote

the gaskets can probably be reused

 Yes, especially if you are hoping for a head gasket leak so you can do the repair a second time.. 
 

To replace the  rings you will need the ring set, base gasket, head gasket, exhaust gasket at a minimum.. plus oil and filter and coolant if you want to do it right.
If the piston is removed from the rod then add a set of piston pin circlips.
 Then don't forget, likely the valve shims will need to be swapped out for the correct size after all that to get proper clearance//  so thats a swap at a local shop that will swap shims (good luck with that) or buy individual ships at $8 a piece and hope you measured/ guessed right so you don't have to order again..or buy a shim kit at $85 or so 


Why is it  no one has the time and money to do it right the first time, but always enough of both to do it a second time??? 

[nstyle73]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-Ring-Set-94-5MM-3720XP-KLX-KFX-DRZ-LTZ400/390838826444?epid=171194115&hash=item5affcf35cc:g:w7gAAOSwT2daC8PC&vxp=mtr

Wiseco rings cannot be used with an OEM piston FYI

Edited January 25, 2018 by nstyle73

[Erik Marquez]

37 minutes ago, nstyle73 said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-Ring-Set-94-5MM-3720XP-KLX-KFX-DRZ-LTZ400/390838826444?epid=171194115&hash=item5affcf35cc:g:w7gAAOSwT2daC8PC&vxp=mtr

Sorry, $24 for rings, granted my bike has a big bore kit with the Wiseco piston and these are the rings I put in, and if you read the reply, I said from "where he is now", meaning he has already removed all of those parts (seat, tank, etc) to get the valve cover off.   Also, if you read the entire thread, he is already changing the oil because of the "gas in the oil" issue.  Rings can be installed with the piston on the rod without removing the wrist pin, I have never seen valves wear from having the cams removed.  '01 DRZ and I have only had to actually change the shims on the valves once to keep them in the specified range. I guess my head gasket is just better than yours.  So, yes, buy the gaskets and yes, the stock cam chain tensioner can be a bear that first time, so I concede that as well.

You can not use Wiesco ring on a OEM installed piston ...Did the OP mention he had a Wiseco piston installed?/ I missed that.

Rings can be installed without removing piston from rod, but some install the piston in the cylinder then lower it to the rod, so I accounted for that option. 
No one said the valves wear from removing cams...Did you read that in what I wrote?  I said its likely the valve clearance will change when its all put together from what it was when taken apart.......

You reused a head gasket...On purpose? Oh, ok ..that exsplanes a lot. 
Please disclose your mechanical choices and experience to any potential bike buyer, it really is the only fair and honest thing to do 

[nstyle73]

Cometic MLS head gaskets are re-usable, per a call to Cometic before reinstalling it, but yes, the OP did not say he had this type of head gasket.

Edited January 25, 2018 by nstyle73

[CT2]

7 hours ago, Erik Marquez said:

 

Thank you for the link Erik! That is a lot of help, I will check the auto parts store for the O-ring tomorrow, if not I guess I will have to order one from one of those links. Do you happen to know the size of the O-ring for the Jet Holder part#13 here? I will see if they have that one as well. 

Thanks for the information regarding piston and rings, here is hoping I don't need to do that though... For the record, if it comes down to, I was already under the impression I would be buying and changing all the seals. I'd rather do it right, and have it reliable, I don't like the thought of my bike breaking and stranding me out somewhere over a 20 dollar seal or something dumb like that. I'm not adverse to spending the money that is needed, however the less I need to spend the better of course.

On that note, I went out today and got a new spark plug, new oil (just some cheaper stuff, so I can flush the system with it), and ordered a compression tester through amazon with next day shipping (Part Source didn't have one with a 10mm adapter). Should I put a new oil filter in, or flush the system with this filter and oil, then put a new filter and good oil after?

Hopefully tomorrow I will know if pulling the head is necessary, or if i can get the carb back together, throw it on and fire it up. Crossing my fingers, especially as my work space is not ideal...

Tight quarters with the car in the garage for the winter haha, bike fits with about 2" to spare, doesn't make working on it easy.

 

Again, thank you everyone for taking the time to offer your opinions and advice! Keep it coming. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by CT2
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