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So I was doing a routine valve check yesterday (all in Spec) and I looked down in the head and saw a little piece of wire in the head bolt hole.  I fished it out with my magnet tool and discovered it is a piece of the choker spring from one of my valve seals.  I found a few more pieces of the spring and a small piece of the actual seal

before this I had no symptoms that I noticed like smoke on start up or burning excessive oil.  Now I’m worried that the pieces of the valve seal may have found their way into my engine somehow.  I’m gonna pull the cams and see If I can see which one came off.  In the meantime I ordered a whole new set of valve seals. 

I have Kibble White black diamond Valves and spring kit and the seals are the ones that have the little choke spring on top and a little tension spring on bottom.  Those are the pieces I’m worried about causing damage...

I’m also running Hot Cams Stage 2 Cams if that makes any difference. I’ve only got about 500 total street miles on this whole engine and top end (Athena Big Bore)...

i guess I’ll have to pull the head and inspect everything and drain the oil to check for particles (and frame screen as well)...

I guess my reason for the post is to ask if anyone else has had this type of failure and what could have been the cause.  What was the outcome?...Any tips?

Edited by Jboat

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1 minute ago, S.O.A.N.Z said:

Did you use the Kibblewhite valve seal kit as well  ?

Yes

BD7511CB-B6B3-48E1-A0D4-33137C59C4DC.png

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i only ask that because kibblewhite state to use their seal kit with their valves - hopefully only 1 dodgy seal then

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1 hour ago, Jboat said:

So I was doing a routine valve check yesterday (all in Spec) and I looked down in the head and saw a little piece of wire in the head bolt hole.  I fished it out with my magnet tool and discovered it is a piece of the choker spring from one of my valve seals.  I found a few more pieces of the spring and a small piece of the actual seal

before this I had no symptoms that I noticed like smoke on start up or burning excessive oil.  Now I’m worried that the pieces of the valve seal may have found their way into my engine somehow.  I’m gonna pull the cams and see If I can see which one came off.  In the meantime I ordered a whole new set of valve seals. 

I have Kibble White black diamond Valves and spring kit and the seals are the ones that have the little choke spring on top and a little tension spring on bottom.  Those are the pieces I’m worried about causing damage...

I’m also running Hot Cams Stage 2 Cams if that makes any difference. I’ve only got about 500 total street miles on this whole engine and top end (Athena Big Bore)...

i guess I’ll have to pull the head and inspect everything and drain the oil to check for particles (and frame screen as well)...

I guess my reason for the post is to ask if anyone else has had this type of failure and what could have been the cause.  What was the outcome?...Any tips?

That broken spring at worst would go down a oil return hole in to the case... It is a hard steel and 'could" do some damage to a gear tooth, it "could: get between the plastic oil pump drive gear and the clutch basket and bust the plastic gear... but chances are it ended up in the bottom of the case or in the oil screen

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Oh well, guess I’ll know more when I pull the head...kinda bummed I have to pull it apart again and get another head gasket...oh well...

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1 hour ago, Jboat said:

So I was doing a routine valve check yesterday (all in Spec) and I looked down in the head and saw a little piece of wire in the head bolt hole.  I fished it out with my magnet tool and discovered it is a piece of the choker spring from one of my valve seals.  I found a few more pieces of the spring and a small piece of the actual seal

before this I had no symptoms that I noticed like smoke on start up or burning excessive oil.  Now I’m worried that the pieces of the valve seal may have found their way into my engine somehow.  I’m gonna pull the cams and see If I can see which one came off.  In the meantime I ordered a whole new set of valve seals. 

I have Kibble White black diamond Valves and spring kit and the seals are the ones that have the little choke spring on top and a little tension spring on bottom.  Those are the pieces I’m worried about causing damage...

I’m also running Hot Cams Stage 2 Cams if that makes any difference. I’ve only got about 500 total street miles on this whole engine and top end (Athena Big Bore)...

i guess I’ll have to pull the head and inspect everything and drain the oil to check for particles (and frame screen as well)...

I guess my reason for the post is to ask if anyone else has had this type of failure and what could have been the cause.  What was the outcome?...Any tips?

That broken spring at worst would go down a oil return hole in to the case... It is a hard steel and 'could" do some damage to a gear tooth, it "could: get between the plastic oil pump drive gear and the clutch basket and bust the plastic gear... but chances are it ended up in the bottom of the case or in the oil screen or stuck to a drain plug magnet, might even come out in the next oil change... Replace the seal, change the oil, perhaps even pull side covers and poke around with magnet on a stick, and around the rotor magnets

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You do not need to pull the head to replace valve seals. Pressurize the cylinder with air through the sparkplug hole then remove keepers and springs.

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8 hours ago, hondaxr650rrrr said:

You do not need to pull the head to replace valve seals. Pressurize the cylinder with air through the sparkplug hole then remove keepers and springs.

I’m aware of that technique but would be concerned having room to work with my removal tool...

Anyways...I’m very glad I removed the head!  Found a broken inner valve spring which caused the seal to get damaged.  I feel very lucky that I saw that little valve seal piece in the head while doing my routine valve inspection.  I didn’t have any noticeable symptoms otherwise and I’m pretty sure I got all the spring pieces out.  The oil looked clean and no metal pieces came out at all.  Piston and cylinder look good as new...

Now I have to wait for new springs before I can put it back together.  I ordered the same spring kit again (Kibble White 60-60045) even though something in the back of my mind is saying maybe I shouldn’t have...no idea why the inner spring broke.  The other 3 still look good but I’m going to replace them all anyways.  Maybe it was a bad batch???

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5 minutes ago, S.O.A.N.Z said:

Who did the valve work ?

A very reputable shop in San Jose, CA.  They usually work on Harley’s but the guy who did the work is an expert mechanic with a great reputation and many hot rod (Car) builds.  I’m not gonna blame him, but I will call him tomorrow to let him know what happened...

The bike had been running great for the last 500 miles since rebuild...

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6 hours ago, Jboat said:

A very reputable shop in San Jose, CA.  They usually work on Harley’s but the guy who did the work is an expert mechanic with a great reputation and many hot rod (Car) builds.  I’m not gonna blame him, but I will call him tomorrow to let him know what happened...

The bike had been running great for the last 500 miles since rebuild...

500 miles on KW springs...and your going to put KW springs back in it?
Double check for spring bind at full lift. spring seat contact, Spring top contact.

What cams are you using? HC And currently available Stage 2? Not and older set of the original Stage 2 right? (they would have to be made in the early 2000's, adjustable cam gears, no comp release)

I have not seen KW springs fail that fast, so id sooner look to a mechanical issue then spring fatigue 
If your interested in a quality spring and top kit, look at the #431-S R/D valve spring kit with titanium tops http://www.megacyclecams.com/catalog/Page51.pdf

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The cams were in the bike when I bought it used and he said they were old Stage 2.  I thought KW springs were high quality.  But now I’m starting to wonder.  I hastily ordered them last night on Amazon so I could get them rushed delivery.

I will check the spring specs per the service manual.  I hope they don’t fail again...

Here are pics of cams.  Can you tell me if they are the older spec versions?

B6CF98F0-D484-4540-B7AF-B7519ED7A193.jpeg

75EC5B18-0E90-47A5-BBA9-5C72E5FDB16D.jpeg

84DFE312-3F24-4914-91CE-03163B50F08B.jpeg

9B2A23B4-E4E7-4C98-AF4A-3AB5CC5BAEEF.jpeg

4C4789B0-38A8-4565-8027-677F9954FF9D.jpeg

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41 minutes ago, Jboat said:

The cams were in the bike when I bought it used and he said they were old Stage 2.  I thought KW springs were high quality.  But now I’m starting to wonder.  I hastily ordered them last night on Amazon so I could get them rushed delivery.

I will check the spring specs per the service manual.  I hope they don’t fail again...

Here are pics of cams.  Can you tell me if they are the older spec versions?

 

Send those pics to HC to confirm (or better yet that and measure lift) but I believe those to be current product cams, Not original stage 2 HC, which had adjustable gears (yours do not) , NO decomp device on the cam as yours do, and I thing I see the cam number that coincides with the current production stage 2 Ex cam>

I asked because the original stage 2 cams (what might be called stage 3 today if they made such a thing) needed a spring set that could accommodate more lift than stockers, and the springs bare worked harder due to ramp speed and it was a good idea to replace springs due to spring fatigue.

Original Stage 2   Hot Cams:                                               
IN .377" lift 243* dur. @ 0.040" 107*   
EX .377" lift 243* dur. @0.040" 107*    

New style stage 2 Hot Cams:
IN .358" lift 238* dur. @ 0.040" 107.5 
EX .358" lift 238* dur. @ 0.040" 104.5 

These were available and purchased in 2005 5a709d16d7ca5_camnumber.jpg.52c964122ba3fc3b07b4a7b59b75d017.jpg
5a709d17a641f_HCOldStage2.jpg.5f14ff3554c8182ff6e5c8bbe46d3f9e.jpg

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I forgot to add the cam ID numbers

Intake says SF251 Hotcams 9594

Exhaust says WW-NH22 NO:252

When I google those numbers I don’t get a match...I’ll break out the calipers and give them a call...

Thanks again!

 

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