M.Roman

Trials Crosstraining

170 posts in this topic

No, I mean that the local guy who has been selling GG for years told me that he no longer will be able to sell parts etc unless he has a showroom. He, like many, basically is selling bikes via preorder out of his building, garage, or whatever.

 

I'm not sure about all the details, nor if it actually happened, since it was over a year ago that I heard it. But the distributor that I spoke with was getting disgusted with GG and not sure he wanted to deal with them any more.

 

Had I meant it the way you understood me, that wouldn't have made sense comparing them to the giant corporate model, would it?

 

Again, I'm not sure of the details. I just know what he told me. HE made the Honda comparison, and he was getting sick of dealing with them.

 

 

 

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Yeah here too. Windber, until 2 years ago, was the 5th oldest surviving Triumph dealer in the US. After the new guy (from HD, who's since been fired) took over Triumph USA, the local owner couldn't have been happier to walk away. Even as big as Triumph is, they've been suffering trying to latch onto the HD corporate crap. Heck, HD is suffering for it! I saw on the news last week they've just closed a plant down.

 

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On 1/30/2018 at 2:38 PM, weantright said:

I hope so since right now I $uck@! I keep telling myself "you will be a better woods rider" "just stay with it".

I got a Beta trials bike in the Fall and I totally I $uck@! as well. But I think it has already made me a better rider on my KTM300

Its a lot harder to do than it looks. Lots of stuff that you can just power thru on a KTM requires actual balance, clutch and throttle control and timing.

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On 2/3/2018 at 4:44 PM, Bron-Yr-Aur said:

Get trials specific boots. They are worth it, IMO, for the maneuverability and protection, and soles. I also prefer the trials 3/4 helmet so I can see. 

Agree, real trials boots and a trials 3/4 helmet. I attended my first trials event thinking I could use my Enduro helmet and boots. That was a fail. You have to be able to walk the sections, which are designed to be slippery, often wet slime covered rocks, roots, etc. I simply could not walk the section in my normal enduro boots. And the full face helmet melted my brain. It was early Fall, still pretty hot in the woods.

My advice: get a bike, practice a bunch, have fun.

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13 hours ago, weantright said:

I question this post because you are a dealer and factory supported racer’s family. But you’re not alone and when I asked other dealers thier response was the same,,, pointing toward thier brand. I was even told brand “A” has more championship so it’s better. Facts are all brands are much better today from 5 years ago. Buy a brand with local support either with a dealer or club members. My list after reasearch was Beta and Sherco. Couldn’t find a clean Beta and the Sherco I bought was local. Otherwise I would have gotten a left over Beta shipped to me. One bike that looked really good was a TRS which I saw when I picked up my Sherco. Doesn’t seem well known or talked about. 

Fair enough. However since I make it well known I'm a dealer and even made mention of the fact that I did pit support for Beta at the nationals I think it's clear where I'm coming from. But I still stand behind what I said. I also made mention of the fact that Montesa/Honda is just as much if not more reliable than Beta. 

If I really wanted to push Beta I would talk about how much better they ride, how much better the power is etc., all the things that are pure opinion and not fact. 

As for the other brands.

 There's  only one that I don't like how it feels (not saying which one) Anyting else I could feel good on after a couple hours.

Since their restructuring after bankruptcy GG is much more corporate than they used to be. Before it was one individual who imported the trials bikes and another who distributed parts. Now GG corporate is running the US market and they are going with only official dealers with a store front (no garage dealers) Before their bankruptcy GG was the most popular bike in the US. GG is the lightest bike on the market. I'll also say the Contact's suspension while not as top of the line as the other models of GG it still works well. I've ridden them and they work perfectly good. 

The best thing about Sherco/Scorpa here in the US is the distributor. RYP does a excellent job. They are 100% trials and that's their main focus. I was/am a dealer for them although I haven't sold a Sherco in many years concentrating on Beta. In all my time getting parts for Sherco's there has never been one OEM part they didn't have in stock! They help and support a tremendous amount of riders. One reason they're so plentiful in the east. Sherco is the bike I've spent the 2nd most time on. The 320cc fourstroke which is very finicky was one of my favorite trials bikes of all time 

TRS' are cool looking bikes and ride nice. I just don't know what the reliability is like or how the parts distribution really is. They just haven't been around long enough and aren't enough around here for me to have an opinion on. 

Vertago's are the most technologically advanced bikes with its EFI 2t motor and other features. With that they are also the highest priced bikes. They ride very nice also. Not sure about their reliability. I haven't seen any issues with bikes around here. They just haven't been around very long. 

So that's my take on all the bikes. I think it's pretty fair coming from a Beta guy. 

Edited by ccullins
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On 30/01/2018 at 8:42 PM, ccullins said:

Well I don't cross train on trials, trials is my main riding. Grew up riding normal dirt bikes, but been riding trials since 2000 and love it! I ride what would be the Expert class in most parts of the country (just not in SoCal)

Brought up both my kids riding trials. They are now 19 & 14 and both can kick my ass on a trials bike. The 14 year old still rides my same class and just started beating me. 

When they jump on a normal dirt bike the transition is so easy for them. The biggest thing I see is the throttle and clutch control I let Ty ride a 450 way before he should have, but he had no problems and never once grabbed too much. The other thing is they know exactly where they are putting both wheels. Not to mention the proper technique for going over things without even thinking. For Ty's Endurocross racing he has actually had to unlearn some things and just smash though stuff because it's faster. 

My best advice to people using it as Cross training is look up local clubs and go ride with those guys. You'll learn so much faster and the proper way. I've seen guys get one then just ride over stuff without learning proper techniques then say they didn't get anything out of it. 

Just to bring it back to Beta to stay in this forum. My first trials bike was a 1998 Beta that I got in 2000. Anybody else here been on a Beta that long? 

Here's our Beta trials bikes. First my 2017 Evo 250, then Ty's 2017 Factory Evo 300, then my youngest Cole's 2018 Evo 125. Beta trials bikes are super solid. The only thing that comes close to them in reliability is the Honda/Montesa. 

 

 

IMG_3048.JPG

ccullins and everyone else welcome, i have been told by a few local trial riders that these bikes are very, very hard to start?? Elevation is +/- 260' to 900'.

1) Should I expect a war to get my 2018 Beta Evo 200 getting started??

I weigh +/- 160 pounds with all the gear to ride Trials, will the Beta OEM spring OK for my weight?

Thanks again

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5 minutes ago, Survivor said:

ccullins and everyone else welcome, i have been told by a few local trial riders that these bikes are very, very hard to start?? Elevation is +/- 260' to 900'.

1) Should I expect a war to get my 2018 Beta Evo 200 getting started??

I weigh +/- 160 pounds with all the gear to ride Trials, will the Beta OEM spring OK for my weight?

Thanks again

Not sure why they would say that. Yes the 300's take a hard kick but not hard to start. The smaller bikes kick easy and pretty much always start 1st or 2nd kick. 

Stock springs should be good for you.  

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10 minutes ago, Survivor said:

ccullins and everyone else welcome, i have been told by a few local trial riders that these bikes are very, very hard to start?? Elevation is +/- 260' to 900'.

1) Should I expect a war to get my 2018 Beta Evo 200 getting started??

I weigh +/- 160 pounds with all the gear to ride Trials, will the Beta OEM spring OK for my weight?

Thanks again

I’m on the east coast in the Hudson valley area , with plenty of weather changes throughout the year. No doubt the bikes can use one size larger pilot jet in temps below 40°, but hard starting has never been an issue even in older temps with stock jetting. I’ve been on everything from 125s to 300 factory models and that stands for all of them.

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Beta is very easy to start.  My wife has no issues with her 125.  250 takes a bigger kick, but usually goes the first time with no choke from cold.  My 85cc mini-sumo is harder to start.  TRS, sherco, GG are all harder to start for sure (based on my experience and conversations with other riders).

Edited by drewnabobber

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22 hours ago, Survivor said:

ccullins and everyone else welcome, i have been told by a few local trial riders that these bikes are very, very hard to start?? Elevation is +/- 260' to 900'.

1) Should I expect a war to get my 2018 Beta Evo 200 getting started??

I weigh +/- 160 pounds with all the gear to ride Trials, will the Beta OEM spring OK for my weight?

Thanks again

Hey, Survivor...

Today, I just got my '17 (actually an '18 with a VIN mislabeled at the factory!) Gas Gas 250 contact ES (electric start).

This is only the second model of trials bike I have ever kick-started, but I've kick-started bikes since 1963, including big thumpers so I do have some experience in that regard.  When I was in my 30's I raced open class 2-strokes; YZ465, RM500, CR500..etc., back then I thought they were fairly easy to kick...so as an aging peer, I can say I doubt very much if I'd have that same perspective now.

Trials two-smoke bikes have a lot of compression compared to trail bikes.  They are harder to kick over (young guys with nice shiny new knees just don't understand...yet).  As a guy who also has worn out knees, I would certainly opt for one of the electric start models if that's possible.  I'll just compare to a KDX 200, of which I've owned many.  A kdx has a longer throw for more leverage and the compression is noticeably less so your follow through is pretty much unimpeded. Not so with the bikes I've tried, you feel a definite point of solid resistance.  Yes, I've read accounts by people here who have the same Gas Gas contact who say it is easy to kick.  But life is relative.  I'm sure with practice and technique, the higher compression trials bikes can generally be easy to start also...but no way are they AS easy based on the two I've tried.  Another example; my Xtrainer 300 is easier to kick than the Gas Gas 250.   LOL, a used older Beta 250 trials bike was for sale at my local Honda dealer, and nobody there could start it (eh, salesmen).  I did, but man, what a drag that was, and it was on the left side too.  I felt it need a compression release like the old John Deere tractor one-lung'rs had...Again, I'm sure that there is some technique you can use to overcome the issue, but imagine being on the side of a hill, pooped out, where you can't get the right angle for maximum force on the lever.... vs a button.  I'd recommend trying to start whatever bike you are interested in before buying.

I'm sure I'll be criticized for this, but messing around in my back field this afternoon, doing slow speed turns, I couldn't help but notice the sideways forces on my knees are much greater than when riding standard dirt bikes. Holding the legs wider is a necessity, and transferring the weight to the off-side peg vs bike lean does put a bit of force to that joint.  I will be wearing my knee braces.

Just my take. 
Oh, and so far it's harder to wheelie my trials bike, because I'm used to using my arse to preload the suspension, LOL.   Ah, new challenges. :thumbsup:

 

Edited by kawagumby
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Good points. I'll just add in agreement that there are tricks. I'm closing in on 50 now (less than a year) but my knees are in fairly good shape. My small stature is the issue, short legs and 135 lbs. Gotta say, just like riding, that technique is everything. For me, the ONLY way I can start a trials bike is this: stand on hill, mound, something to get me a little higher. Then, jump up and stiff leg the kicking leg before I begin to come down. Only my body weight will do it. Can't even imagine using my quad and knee.

 

My GG was even worse than my Sherco. Because the sherco is so much tamer, and easier to kick, and less violent with a twist of the throttle, I'm thoroughly convinced the GG had some work done to it. It was a madman.

 

 

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My Sherco 270 starts quickly, but kicks tough like others have said. Also, if you half-a$$ the kick and it doesn't start it will kick back and shoot your knee into the bars...

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13 hours ago, kawagumby said:

Hey, Survivor...

Today, I just got my '17 (actually an '18 with a VIN mislabeled at the factory!) Gas Gas 250 contact ES (electric start).

This is only the second model of trials bike I have ever kick-started, but I've kick-started bikes since 1963, including big thumpers so I do have some experience in that regard.  When I was in my 30's I raced open class 2-strokes; YZ465, RM500, CR500..etc., back then I thought they were fairly easy to kick...so as an aging peer, I can say I doubt very much if I'd have that same perspective now.

Trials two-smoke bikes have a lot of compression compared to trail bikes.  They are harder to kick over (young guys with nice shiny new knees just don't understand...yet).  As a guy who also has worn out knees, I would certainly opt for one of the electric start models if that's possible.  I'll just compare to a KDX 200, of which I've owned many.  A kdx has a longer throw for more leverage and the compression is noticeably less so your follow through is pretty much unimpeded. Not so with the bikes I've tried, you feel a definite point of solid resistance.  Yes, I've read accounts by people here who have the same Gas Gas contact who say it is easy to kick.  But life is relative.  I'm sure with practice and technique, the higher compression trials bikes can generally be easy to start also...but no way are they AS easy based on the two I've tried.  Another example; my Xtrainer 300 is easier to kick than the Gas Gas 250.   LOL, a used older Beta 250 trials bike was for sale at my local Honda dealer, and nobody there could start it (eh, salesmen).  I did, but man, what a drag that was, and it was on the left side too.  I felt it need a compression release like the old John Deere tractor one-lung'rs had...Again, I'm sure that there is some technique you can use to overcome the issue, but imagine being on the side of a hill, pooped out, where you can't get the right angle for maximum force on the lever.... vs a button.  I'd recommend trying to start whatever bike you are interested in before buying.

I'm sure I'll be criticized for this, but messing around in my back field this afternoon, doing slow speed turns, I couldn't help but notice the sideways forces on my knees are much greater than when riding standard dirt bikes. Holding the legs wider is a necessity, and transferring the weight to the off-side peg vs bike lean does put a bit of force to that joint.  I will be wearing my knee braces.

Just my take. 
Oh, and so far it's harder to wheelie my trials bike, because I'm used to using my arse to preload the suspension, LOL.   Ah, new challenges. :thumbsup:

 

See the trials bike is already showing you your poor technique!  Wheeling from your arse preloading was is incorrect.

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LOL...yep. that's why I bought the trials bike -  I can wheelie an enduro or MX bike all day long, bump down with my arse, pull up on the bars with some power...I go over logs just fine...BUT...I knew I could do better with some new knowledge and muscle memory from practice on a trials bike.  There are places on the narrow trails I ride where I need to "step up" on a side hill to keep from sliding down into a canyon.  Very difficult without developing technique to do that (I have had little success so far).   This is a fun change of pace for me, and I can do it in my own back yard. That's pretty hard to beat.

But, man am I sore today already!!

Edited by kawagumby
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On 2/4/2018 at 9:08 PM, Survivor said:

1) Should I expect a war to get my 2018 Beta Evo 200 getting started??

No. My decade old Beta Rev3 takes a stout kick but always starts right up if you kick it fast enough. The guy I bought mine from was about 150lbs, he had no issues at all, but he is about 15 to 20 years younger than I am, and is in good shape. I'm looking now, and today I kicked over two GasGas trials, one 250, and one 300, both were right leg kick. They too take a fairly serious kick. A new 200 might be a bit easier to kick, but starting these bikes is not an issue. There is a technique.

I've had times when I've been too tired to kick well, and flagged down a young guy who just popped it and it was running.

I took a course from Ryan Young, he would balance the bike stopped, and while balanced, flip out the kick lever and start it, put it in gear and go, all without a dab. Technique

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14 hours ago, Bron-Yr-Aur said:

Yeah harder to wheelie a trials bike??! Something's definitely wrong there! Trials bikes can be wheelied with virtually 0 throttle.

A standard technique in trials school is the motor off wheelie. Graham Jarvis even does it on his 300 Husqv enduro bike. Every good trials rider that I've watched can bounce the front wheel off the ground, place it 8 inches to the right or left, and come down, and if needed, bounce it back up again. Practice doing a 360, motor off. (I can only get two bounces, but I need more practice)

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A standard technique in trials school is the motor off wheelie. Graham Jarvis even does it on his 300 Husqv enduro bike. Every good trials rider that I've watched can bounce the front wheel off the ground, place it 8 inches to the right or left, and come down, and if needed, bounce it back up again. Practice doing a 360, motor off. (I can only get two bounces, but I need more practice)

Yeah that's my next task. I just got my front brake installed (entire BrakeTec system) and it feels really nice. I've got the rear swingarm and linkage apart, getting ready to replace some bushings. As soon as that's back together and I get the steering head bearings repacked (and this snow and cold leaves) the next thing I'm practicing is the front end hops.

 

Jason (from your school) just called me and told me he's planning on going to the next RY school again, and asked me to go. I'm keeping it on my radar, but haven't heard the dates yet. He emphasized to me that the school isn't really for beginners as much, and to really get the most out of it, I need to have my balance down.

 

Btw he asked me to ask you if you have any video of that school? He thought you had a GoPro running a good bit. He wanted to see the wall when he splattered it, if you did indeed get that on camera.

 

Oh yeah, and I just rode last Monday with another guy that attended that school, DeVonn. He only lives about 3 miles from me. He had the orange 2016 Scorpa.

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5 hours ago, Bron-Yr-Aur said:

He emphasized to me that the school isn't really for beginners as much, and to really get the most out of it, I need to have my balance down.

Btw he asked me to ask you if you have any video of that school? He thought you had a GoPro running a good bit. He wanted to see the wall when he splattered it, if you did indeed get that on camera.

I was a beginner, and my balance sucked. But I enjoyed it and had fun, i just could not do most of the stuff. I'd be interested in taking it again this Fall. Practice your balance

Here is the first day of Ryan Young videos, 

 

the big wall splat was on day two 

 

 

Edited by pat22043
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