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Trials Crosstraining

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Like he said that Dellorto has been around for years on trials bikes. It's a very durable carb that has no issues. A Kehien will have a tendency to get a clogged pilot jet from time to time on the trials bike. That doesn't happen with the round slide Dellorto. 

Actually, it does happen. At least on the VHST old ones. Happened to me. And over on trials central several recommended to me to just swapping it for new instead of cleaning. After 3 tearsdowns, I broke down and replaced it. Only then did I cure my lean, surging idle.

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1 hour ago, Bron-Yr-Aur said:


Actually, it does happen. At least on the VHST old ones. Happened to me. And over on trials central several recommended to me to just swapping it for new instead of cleaning. After 3 tearsdowns, I broke down and replaced it. Only then did I cure my lean, surging idle.

Yeah the oval slide VHST was terrible! And pilot jets did clog easy and are crazy expensive. 

What we're talking about though is the round slide PBHL. 

Edited by ccullins
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Yeah the flat slide VHST was terrible! And pilot jets did clog easy and are crazy expensive. 
What we're talking about though is the round slide PBHL. 

Ahh ok. Is that why a lot of guys were switching them out? From what I understand the vhst had advantages, so I didn't understand why guys were swapping them...

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16 minutes ago, Bron-Yr-Aur said:


Ahh ok. Is that why a lot of guys were switching them out? From what I understand the vhst had advantages, so I didn't understand why guys were swapping them...

Well there wasn't too many bikes that came with them. I think some older Montesa's maybe and I know Sherco did one year (that's what I had) maybe some GG?  but I'm not sure. 

Being that they where a 28mm vs the 26mm PBHL and oval slide compared to round there where some advantages once tuned perfectly. It was just a finicky carb to deal with. I still have one on my shelf I switched out for a Kehien on a Sherco. 

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Although I am quite old and that I could not practice that often on a bicycle, I think that buying a used BMX bicycle with front and rear brakes could get me started (before my first step in Trials next spring) with balance, weight transfer when climbing a 6" to 12" step as a starter and really trying to have a start at weight transfer from front to back or vice versa. The weight transfer and balance combine to throttle handling and clutch slipping and clutch habilities is so important from the info I get from video's and comment's in general. Ryan Young sure puts a picture to it when you watch his videos.

What do you think?

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Of course there are some basic skills that will transfer between pedal bikes and motorbikes, but I find them very different.  On a motorbike, it is all about learning how to use the power and suspension of the bike to do the work for you as you cannot lift even a 150 lb trials bike easily with your body.  For example, on a bicycle you can easily do 6-12 inch bunnyhops just by lifting with your body and arms.  That will not happen on any motorbike.  It is all about timing and using the clutch and suspension.  I don't want to minimize the skills used in bicycle trials, but I think that between the weight, motor, clutch and suspension a BMX bike is a very different experience from a trials motorcycle.  But if all you have time/space/budget for is a BMX, sure, get one and start riding, that is the most important thing.  But if you can get a trials moto now and can get out riding, do it and don't look back.  Why wait till next year?

Edited by drewnabobber
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I agree that bicycles, even trials bicycles do not carry over to motorbikes well at all. The only things that might carry over a bit are balance and rear wheel pogo-hopping which is very advanced and 99% of us will never actually apply this.

There is so much clutch and throttle timing used in intermediate and advanced moves, things you can't practice on a bicycle. 

I tried a trials bicycle, briefly, but I didn't like it. Totally different feel and just didn't think I could get into it. Just my 2 cents

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14 hours ago, TM.Tyler said:

 Just make sure to find the compression before you kick with all your force or the kick start gear can break in these little bikes. But as far as difficulty, I would say its one of the easier bikes I've kicked over and electric start would not be necessary.

 

FullSizeRender.jpg

That's the case with some other bikes, not Beta's. Kick a Beta however you like, your not going to hurt it. Some other brands that have tiny motors and a very different style kickstart gears you do have to be careful with. 

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I totally agree with the other guys. While a lot of the moves seem the same a bicycle isn't that great Cross training for trials. We have a trials bicycle and it can be fun, but didn't find much of a benefit. 

 So I was off work today and my 14 year old  didn't have school so we went for a short ride today. A little warm up for the 2 day trials this weekend. 

My 2017 Evo 250 and his 2018 Evo 125 Beta

IMG_3096.JPG

IMG_3097.JPG

IMG_3104.PNG

IMG_3125.PNG

Edited by ccullins
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11 minutes ago, ccullins said:

I totally agree with the other guys. While a lot of the moves seem the same a bicycle isn't that great Cross training for trials. We have a trials bicycle and it can be fun, but didn't find much of a benefit. 

 So I was off work today and my 14 year old  didn't have school so we went for a short ride today. A little warm up for the 2 day trials this weekend. 

My 2017 Evo 250 and his 2018 Evo 125 Beta

IMG_3096.JPG

IMG_3097.JPG

IMG_3104.PNG

IMG_3125.PNG

ccullins and the other, thanks a lot for the replies.

ccullins, great pictures and nice moves. I can just imagine how much fun it must be for you to ride with your son!

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So Saturday is my dumb question day...here goes

As mentioned earlier, looking for my first trials bike, consensus says 200 but a 250 will do (6'2" 225lbs).  In the MX world there's a big difference between a between a 250 2t and a 250 4t out of the box, does this apply to trials also?  Is say a 250 Evo comparable to a 260 Montesa?  I'm guessing for whatever reason this is true solely based on the fact that there is no 450 Montesa that competes against the 300 smokers.  But I don't really understand why?  As a general rule and the way i understand things, a 2t will make more power than a 4t per cc, but in the trials world there doesn't seem to be that delta.  I know 4t's have come a long way in matching the 2t for outright power due to the much higher redline on the 4's, but is that what's required by the 4t's to make them competitive to 2t's in the trials world also?  Rev the guts out of it?

Edited by Cabo

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Horsepower (force over time) is basically irrelevant in trials.  It is about torque and that is the same between 2t and 4t, nothing is really required to make a 4t competitive besides lightness.  When you see riders hitting large faces most of the energy is coming from the flywheel, the motor is just spinning it up.  In outdoor trials (and some trail riding) there will be some longer climbs where power is a very small factor, but even in that situation there is basically no difference between 2T and 4T because you aren't reving either of them.  2T is usually preferred because they are lighter and harder to stall, but 4t can find traction a little better in certain situations and some people prefer the feel.  Montesa is the only manufacturer that competes with a 4t, and that is pretty much because they are Honda and Honda doesn't do 2T any more.  Again the only time you are reving the guts out of a trials bike is for 1 or 2 seconds before a lift, and that is only to get the flywheel spinning.  The rest of the time, if you are revving a lot, you are spinning the tire and losing traction.

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Yeah trails bikes for the most part compare cc to cc. 

Reason is this, they aren't close to making maximum HP for their size. I think a 300 EVO has about half the HP of a 300RR. So it's easy for a fourstroke to make just as much since they aren't close to making the kind of HP their cc is capable of. 

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My experience is 125,s are harder to ride because you need to exaggerate many techniques because of the limited power . But in the end it would make you a better rider faster because of that . 250’s are the choice of many “in the know”because they have the power to accomplish everything , but ride a little easier and more forgiving than the 300. The 300 is the most popular and likely gets the best resale as it’s the closest to “what wins on race day” and most guys like the biggest most powerful anything . That said the 300 is also usually the best playbike if your one that adventure rides playing on mountains  like here in western Canada. 

The 4 strokes are defiantly becoming very popular now , a little heavier ,but just as capable .  I do find a hard transition  from a 2t .  The bike reacts slower and makes my timing off enough to be frustrating . Practice would cure   but the weight and complexity ( and increased $) keeps me on a 2t .   

I wouldn’t say I cross train , I like riding much of the  same terrain on my Beta 300rr as my Vertigo trials.  But I am a more capable rider because of trials . I would also admit if I could only own 1 bike , it would be the trials . 

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It takes some adjustment getting use to riding a trials bike in situations similar to dirt bikes, i.e. long rocky hill climbs. Staying just off idle is pretty much the only way to do it. Revving it up is so counterproductive. Speaking with no exaggeration, it is shocking the amount of traction one gains when keeping the rpms low on a trials bike.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, drewnabobber said:

Horsepower (force over time) is basically irrelevant in trials.  It is about torque and that is the same between 2t and 4t, nothing is really required to make a 4t competitive besides lightness.  When you see riders hitting large faces most of the energy is coming from the flywheel, the motor is just spinning it up.  In outdoor trials (and some trail riding) there will be some longer climbs where power is a very small factor, but even in that situation there is basically no difference between 2T and 4T because you aren't reving either of them.  2T is usually preferred because they are lighter and harder to stall, but 4t can find traction a little better in certain situations and some people prefer the feel.  Montesa is the only manufacturer that competes with a 4t, and that is pretty much because they are Honda and Honda doesn't do 2T any more.  Again the only time you are reving the guts out of a trials bike is for 1 or 2 seconds before a lift, and that is only to get the flywheel spinning.  The rest of the time, if you are revving a lot, you are spinning the tire and losing traction.

drewnabobber: What a great explanation for an old man like me with no abilities in mechanic. You explained it so well that I can picture the bike ready to explodes it's energy to hit the face of the rock and climb. :thumbsup:  Thanks!

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2 hours ago, Bron-Yr-Aur said:

It takes some adjustment getting use to riding a trials bike in situations similar to dirt bikes, i.e. long rocky hill climbs. Staying just off idle is pretty much the only way to do it. Revving it up is so counterproductive. Speaking with no exaggeration, it is shocking the amount of traction one gains when keeping the rpms low on a trials bike.

  Whats equally as shocking is the absolute lack of traction when your weight is off the pegs,ie pushing the bike up something that's to intimidating to completely dedicate to.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by widebear

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So Saturday is my dumb question day...here goes

As mentioned earlier, looking for my first trials bike, consensus says 200 but a 250 will do (6'2" 225lbs).  In the MX world there's a big difference between a between a 250 2t and a 250 4t out of the box, does this apply to trials also?  Is say a 250 Evo comparable to a 260 Montesa?  I'm guessing for whatever reason this is true solely based on the fact that there is no 450 Montesa that competes against the 300 smokers.  But I don't really understand why?  As a general rule and the way i understand things, a 2t will make more power than a 4t per cc, but in the trials world there doesn't seem to be that delta.  I know 4t's have come a long way in matching the 2t for outright power due to the much higher redline on the 4's, but is that what's required by the 4t's to make them competitive to 2t's in the trials world also?  Rev the guts out of it?

I forgot to add to my last post... I imagine it will be a couple of years before I need to even rev up my trials bike like ccullin described. When you see those guys do that and make it, those are very accomplished riders. The amount of power thats required to learn trials properly, as in comoetition, is a fraction of what the bike is capable of. Only the pro and expert classes are using much of the throttle. Even when crossing large obstacles, those with proper skills are using much less throttle than one would think.

 

I recently when riding on my ktm enduro bike with an older gent who's only bike is a 2016 Scorpa 300. Everywhere we went, crossing logs, hill climbs, rocky steep creek beds, whatever, he hardly raised the rpms. Even crossing a log that was Nearly the height of his handle bars, he was only around 1\2 throttle.

 

Long story short, if youre a new rider, buy the newest bike with least use that you can afford. Don't worry about the engine size. Because even if its a 125, it'll be a while before you use all the power. Provided your goal is to ride trials style.

 

This was a competition I went to some months back. Look at the height of the log, and yet listen to how little rpms he uses...

 

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What the best way to carry a Beta Evo 200 Trial Bike without damaging the fork seal and making sure the bike doesn't move in the trailer?

Pictures welcome if you can. Thanks a lot for your help.

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