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gr4vitas

2018 300RR or XC-W I'm torn

179 posts in this topic

16 hours ago, shrubitup said:

Good point but this pair of Sachs feel great as-is without need for valves and shims. My point is that many claim the Sachs are poor performing but I disagree. :smirk: Suspension is a bit subjective so I'm just throwing out some more subjectivity here. :prof:

I think most that are complaining are for the quality issues that come with the Sachs forks. Then it's the ride quality but this aspect is all personal and can with time be set-up controlled.

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I guess for a lot of people who send stuff out, even for oil changes, if it works decent enough when you get it back, for where you ride, it doesn't matter.  I was one of those guys years ago.   If you do your own work, source your own parts, see whats happening inside the hardware on a regular basis, and ride/race different terrain, then the KYB CC fork is a no brainer.  It works, EVERYWHERE.  It holds up well.  Service parts are cheap and EVERYWHERE.  Its just far less hassle and expense with a broader performance scope than most others.  Like jetting a Keihin carb.

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49 minutes ago, weantright said:

I think most that are complaining are for the quality issues that come with the Sachs forks. Then it's the ride quality but this aspect is all personal and can with time be set-up controlled.

I see those as two very different things. Beta finally is addressing nw_drz's quality issue with his 17 forks. My response was related to their performance because a vocal majority of the bashing of them have come from non beta riders. 

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On 2018-02-11 at 6:29 PM, shrubitup said:

Most who praise the KYB are not trail riding. Well, they might ride some trails to get to where they want to be and that's the faster, open, flowy stuff. I specifically look for trails that limit my speed.

I would have to very much disagree with you there. That’s like saying no one riding a Yamaha rides woods. The KYB SSS are great because they can be made very plush and comfortable while also being able to provide a lot of control, confidence and stability when being pushed harder and faster. The worst thing any of the people I know that own a Beta can do is ride my bike. And I’m not saying KYB is some kind of magical unicorn but it’s no secret that they are the gold standard for a spring fork. The 18 WP AER is also really good now and the new Showa forks on the 17+ Honda’s is phenomenal. 

And just to put it in context for you, I live in Beta country. My friend owns Beta Canada, I do work for Beta time to time and over half the bikes normally on any ride with me are Betas. I know Beta, I like the bikes, I get to ride them all. I’m not bagging on Beta here. And HDR, tons of guys complain about the Zokes and Sachs in real life, not just the Internet. If not a lot of suspension tuners that work on those suspensions would be making a lot less money. It’s usually a 50/50 split with the people I know that ride Beta. Any of the guys that ride harder and faster have them reworked. The other guys that just plonk along at a turtles pace don’t seem to care. So like you said, for slow technical trail work they are not bad. One of our top 5 pro class guys here runs the OC and he’s fast, hits stuff hard. He doesn’t seem to care but he’s also 19 years old and a bear of a kid that just manhandles his bike. Some guys are just skilled enough that they don’t care what they ride.

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I tried to post the above early this mornin* and the page crashed. Looks like the TT Post editor saved it so there it is lol. GP covers a lot of what I feel and wanted to contribute. 

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6 minutes ago, ckny said:

. The other guys that just plonk along at a turtles pace don’t seem to care.

That's me! I do care. I don't want deflection and hard hits. I want the bike to absorb most of the jarring hits not my body. I'm not fast. I don't want to be fast. I don't need to be fast. 

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Just now, shrubitup said:

That's me! I do care. I don't want deflection and hard hits. I want the bike to absorb most of the jarring hits not my body. I'm not fast. I don't want to be fast. I don't need to be fast. 

And there is nothing wrong with that. A lot of the MTB guys I ride with love riding super tight expert level MTB trails on dirt bikes. They don’t seem to care as much about suspension. Me, I’m super sensitive to suspension and it’s really the only thing I care about on a bike other than normal personal set up and gearing. I don’t need more power or anything like that. If having my suspension dialed let’s me ride faster and more efficiently than the other guys I race or ride with I take full advantage of it. 

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I'm not as fast as I once thought I was, but I just do not have confidence in my Sachs OC forks even after I had them worked with Race Tech by a young fellow locally. For the most part they are just okay on normal singletrack until you get in a square rock area and most specifically in a rocky uphill. I know they can be better and will get better or will get KYB's, I'm spoiled suspension wise from my years on my Yamaha's.

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Most of the fast guys in our state on KTM's run KYB copy insert, or KYB conversions not many on oc or air forks other than in the lower classes.    I believe a lot of guys send there stuff out not really knowing what they want done, and expect some suspension guy to magically make there bike handle everything, AND THEN blame it on the bike.

 

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I previously had a 250FX before my 250RR.  In the slow nasty single track I find the difference suspension wise less noticeable between the 2, but I'd still give the FX the edge.  When any speed or hard chop comes into play I definitely prefer the KYB equipped bike.  After getting the correct springs for the OC Sachs they did feel much better.  Where we ride I am definitely faster on the Beta.  Mainly slow PNW woods.  I equate that to other things though.  I will be getting a revalve from Les at LTR soon (front and back) and will report back with my findings.  

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2 hours ago, ckny said:

I would have to very much disagree with you there. That’s like saying no one riding a Yamaha rides woods. The KYB SSS are great because they can be made very plush and comfortable while also being able to provide a lot of control, confidence and stability when being pushed harder and faster. The worst thing any of the people I know that own a Beta can do is ride my bike. And I’m not saying KYB is some kind of magical unicorn but it’s no secret that they are the gold standard for a spring fork. The 18 WP AER is also really good now and the new Showa forks on the 17+ Honda’s is phenomenal. 

And just to put it in context for you, I live in Beta country. My friend owns Beta Canada, I do work for Beta time to time and over half the bikes normally on any ride with me are Betas. I know Beta, I like the bikes, I get to ride them all. I’m not bagging on Beta here. And HDR, tons of guys complain about the Zokes and Sachs in real life, not just the Internet. If not a lot of suspension tuners that work on those suspensions would be making a lot less money. It’s usually a 50/50 split with the people I know that ride Beta. Any of the guys that ride harder and faster have them reworked. The other guys that just plonk along at a turtles pace don’t seem to care. So like you said, for slow technical trail work they are not bad. One of our top 5 pro class guys here runs the OC and he’s fast, hits stuff hard. He doesn’t seem to care but he’s also 19 years old and a bear of a kid that just manhandles his bike. Some guys are just skilled enough that they don’t care what they ride.

Just another OP here, I have a '16 YZ 450 as well as my '13 Beta and can tell you all the KYB forks are AWESOME and I'm also a huge fan of KTM but I've never rode anything that is better than KYB forks. To top this off I've got the Ohlins conversion on my forks done by Stillwell who is very well known for his expertise and I'd still say the KYBs are better...

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2 hours ago, NW_drZ said:

I previously had a 250FX before my 250RR.  In the slow nasty single track I find the difference suspension wise less noticeable between the 2, but I'd still give the FX the edge.  When any speed or hard chop comes into play I definitely prefer the KYB equipped bike.  After getting the correct springs for the OC Sachs they did feel much better.  Where we ride I am definitely faster on the Beta.  Mainly slow PNW woods.  I equate that to other things though.  I will be getting a revalve from Les at LTR soon (front and back) and will report back with my findings.  

In the meantime before you get a revalve dump the factory fluid and refill with Motul 5w.  Made a noticeable difference in my 16 350rr. 

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In the meantime before you get a revalve dump the factory fluid and refill with Motul 5w.  Made a noticeable difference in my 16 350rr. 


At the same time as the springs i replaced the oil with belray 5w. They are still not good enough. At least for me they are not after owning KYB equipped bikes and riding multiple AER equipped bikes. Heck the revalved explorers were damn nice. Hoping to get them there though. I’m currently dealing with worn fork tubes and hammered oil. About to get the new ones hard coated :)
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At the same time as the springs i replaced the oil with belray 5w. They are still not good enough. At least for me they are not after owning KYB equipped bikes and riding multiple AER equipped bikes. Heck the revalved explorers were damn nice. Hoping to get them there though. I’m currently dealing with worn fork tubes and hammered oil. About to get the new ones hard coated

I got my money back on my 2018 CC purchase. I'm going to to do a KYB swap. After reading these posts I feel like I made the right decision. It seems like the guys that swap to the KYB forks are the most satisfied.
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I got my money back on my 2018 CC purchase. I'm going to to do a KYB swap. After reading these posts I feel like I made the right decision. It seems like the guys that swap to the KYB forks are the most satisfied.


I think you made the right choice. It would be one thing if your bike came with the CC Sachs and you were going to work on those. But spending your money for the actual forks, the KYB is the route to go and proven.
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38 minutes ago, jpbova said:


I got my money back on my 2018 CC purchase. I'm going to to do a KYB swap. After reading these posts I feel like I made the right decision. It seems like the guys that swap to the KYB forks are the most satisfied.

How much were the CC Sachs forks ? 

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How much were the CC Sachs forks ? 

Brand new 2018 Sachs CC forks are $1500

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The thing keeping me from a KYB swap, is the custom spacers, machined fork tubes, etc. Waiting on the Sachs stuff is bad enough, but one-off parts that depend on a machinist (which I am not) is not something I'd prefer to deal with.

I'd almost prefer to use the kick starter on the YZ250X, than to mess around with making KYB's work on a Beta.

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1 hour ago, Goatse said:

The thing keeping me from a KYB swap, is the custom spacers, machined fork tubes, etc. Waiting on the Sachs stuff is bad enough, but one-off parts that depend on a machinist (which I am not) is not something I'd prefer to deal with.

I'd almost prefer to use the kick starter on the YZ250X, than to mess around with making KYB's work on a Beta.

Maybe the mx tech cartridges, Ohlins inserts, dal soggio, they are all plug and play but you also have to pay more. Or revalve the Sachs stuff there are a few guys who never get a bad wrap with them like L&T and Afterhours cycles. SSS with all its messing around is still a much cheaper option and great value for your dollar if you can rebuild and valve the fork yourself otherwise I'd go with the others.  If the spacers are holding you up heaps send me a pm I'll measure them for you. 

MM 

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6 hours ago, ckny said:

I would have to very much disagree with you there. That’s like saying no one riding a Yamaha rides woods. The KYB SSS are great because they can be made very plush and comfortable while also being able to provide a lot of control, confidence and stability when being pushed harder and faster. The worst thing any of the people I know that own a Beta can do is ride my bike. And I’m not saying KYB is some kind of magical unicorn but it’s no secret that they are the gold standard for a spring fork. The 18 WP AER is also really good now and the new Showa forks on the 17+ Honda’s is phenomenal. 

And just to put it in context for you, I live in Beta country. My friend owns Beta Canada, I do work for Beta time to time and over half the bikes normally on any ride with me are Betas. I know Beta, I like the bikes, I get to ride them all. I’m not bagging on Beta here. And HDR, tons of guys complain about the Zokes and Sachs in real life, not just the Internet. If not a lot of suspension tuners that work on those suspensions would be making a lot less money. It’s usually a 50/50 split with the people I know that ride Beta. Any of the guys that ride harder and faster have them reworked. The other guys that just plonk along at a turtles pace don’t seem to care. So like you said, for slow technical trail work they are not bad. One of our top 5 pro class guys here runs the OC and he’s fast, hits stuff hard. He doesn’t seem to care but he’s also 19 years old and a bear of a kid that just manhandles his bike. Some guys are just skilled enough that they don’t care what they ride.

Tons of guys complain about Zokes and Sachs? Some do. Alot don’t too. Id be and lots more others would as well. Ive been around hearing lots of grumbing for years online more. In 08 and 09 guys talked about the 45 zokes like on my 09 525 rs that I bought new and have gold valved and sprung since. Guys were talking about going to the suspension experienced guys like LT at the time. It was who the gasgas and husky guys went to earlier because LT and others were familiar with zokes and later Sachs. All along the way Ive ridden different Betas till now... and other brands of dirtbikes.  Ive been lucky that I know my dealer a long while and have been lucky enough to try a variety of betas over the years. Haven’t tried any 18’s though. I have 50 cc mm zokes on my 12 350 rr race edition. I ride and race my oc sachs on my 300  .. I also raced my 09 525 rs in hare scrambles too. Im older and way far from being an A rider like a long while ago. but Im far from being a turtle. Hey I can hold my own on a physically good day though those are fewer and farther between but I place sometimes and have won my class. Other days Im off par and lose in beautiful fashion. I don’t think lots here are “Bears” and pros. There are some young hammers that rip but most I think are vet riders and the oc forks straight aren’t bad at all set up right. .. and of course any bike that is run harder and faster you  setup your suspension to handle. That’s not a Beta thing. That’s every bike. The only thing about Beta is that out of the box Betas have always been soft suspended because Betas are designed to ride in Italian trails.  Italian trails are tighter technical. .. but racing fast mx or whatever redo for speed. 

Betas suspension setup is explained toward the end

https://www.endurotyres.com/five-mins-betas-frank-schroeder/

 

 

 

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