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2018 300RR or XC-W I'm torn

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8 hours ago, Goatse said:
The thing keeping me from a KYB swap, is the custom spacers, machined fork tubes, etc. Waiting on the Sachs stuff is bad enough, but one-off parts that depend on a machinist (which I am not) is not something I'd prefer to deal with.

I'd almost prefer to use the kick starter on the YZ250X, than to mess around with making KYB's work on a Beta.


Why not use the spacers from Hyde racing and then grind down a yamaha spacer to 12.5 mm? or use the front wheel off a yamaha

Edited by jpbova

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3 hours ago, jpbova said:


Why not use the spacers from Hyde racing and then grind down a yamaha spacer to 12.5 mm? or use the front wheel off a yamaha

If you use the front wheel off the yamaha, do you need to get a whole new caliper and hangar? 

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11 hours ago, jpbova said:


Brand new 2018 Sachs CC forks are $1500

For those that don't see where we are coming from. This price you can outfit two Beta's with KYB if your not picky on the condition of the donor forks.

11 hours ago, Goatse said:

The thing keeping me from a KYB swap, is the custom spacers, machined fork tubes, etc. Waiting on the Sachs stuff is bad enough, but one-off parts that depend on a machinist (which I am not) is not something I'd prefer to deal with.

I'd almost prefer to use the kick starter on the YZ250X, than to mess around with making KYB's work on a Beta.

Custom spacers are either homemade or found on the internet,,, in red! Very simple to get and note for replacement or next owner. Machine fork tubes are not needed if you buy correct year of KYB's. What is concerning is the total offset that will change when using the stock RR clamps. You need either a new triple clamp, Beta racing uses 21.5mm vs. 20 for XT, 22 for 2t and 23 for 4t. Other then the forks this is the biggest item both in sizing and cost to grasp. While I am simplifying this a fork height in clamp change can reduce some/most of the offset change. Fearing the unknown is not a fear just naive.

9 hours ago, MartyMOOSE said:

Maybe the mx tech cartridges, Ohlins inserts, dal soggio, they are all plug and play but you also have to pay more. Or revalve the Sachs stuff there are a few guys who never get a bad wrap with them like L&T and Afterhours cycles. SSS with all its messing around is still a much cheaper option and great value for your dollar if you can rebuild and valve the fork yourself otherwise I'd go with the others.  If the spacers are holding you up heaps send me a pm I'll measure them for you. 

MM 

If this is the options you have get the Dal Soggio. They are the best CC forks listed and don't use special tools or cost a lot to service. MX Tech are OC while they are reviewed better the OEM OC just not in the same class as the other two listed.

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38 minutes ago, OscarFox said:

If you use the front wheel off the yamaha, do you need to get a whole new caliper and hangar? 

Using a Beta wheel you will need a different calibrator bracket. I would have to assume no different bracket is needed for Yamaha wheel on a Yamaha front end.

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9 minutes ago, weantright said:

Custom spacers are either homemade or found on the internet,,, in red! Very simple to get and note for replacement or next owner. Machine fork tubes are not needed if you buy correct year of KYB's. What is concerning is the total offset that will change when using the stock RR clamps. You need either a new triple clamp, Beta racing uses 21.5mm vs. 20 for XT, 22 for 2t and 23 for 4t. Other then the forks this is the biggest item both in sizing and cost to grasp. While I am simplifying this a fork height in clamp change can reduce some/most of the offset change. Fearing the unknown is not a fear just naive.

you are confusing me now :goofy:.  I thought the RR 2T clamp offset was 20mm

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2 minutes ago, jpbova said:

you are confusing me now :goofy:.  I thought the RR 2T clamp offset was 20mm

Reread my IM, 20 is XT's and 22mm are the 2t. Boano uses 21.5mm across the board on their race bikes and in the XT's conversion kit.

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7 minutes ago, weantright said:

Reread my IM, 20 is XT's and 22mm are the 2t. Boano uses 21.5mm across the board on their race bikes and in the XT's conversion kit.

My reading comprehension is poor.  22 + 35 = 57mm of total offset 2t RR.  In order to get a 32mm lug to work on a RR you would need a 25mm offset clamp

Edited by jpbova

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On 2/7/2018 at 1:51 PM, NW_drZ said:

Hard to say George.  From the research I have done I have come across a good amount of people experiencing the same problem.  I wouldn't be surprised if a lot just don't notice it and or check.  The only reason I really did was because of how bad my fork oil looked when I changed it.  I actually didn't see anything on the internet that got me to check.  It wasn't until after I did a search (because of how hammered mine was) that I saw others reporting the exact same issue. 

There's a pretty lengthy thread on the Beta forum about the fork wear.  I'm narrowing it down to the possibility of too tight of lower triple clamps.  aj_mariner brought that to my attention and it really seems like it could be the smoking gun.  Some clamps (mine) are .005" undersize with no forks.  But, these clamps have been on KTMs for years.  The factory Beta clamps are the same way.  The x-trig machine the bore after anodizing.  Sorry to hi-jack the thread a little.

I like the Beta.  I rode my brother's 18 KTm and it is impressive.  

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34 minutes ago, jpbova said:

My reading comprehension is poor.  22 + 35 = 57mm of total offset 2t RR.  In order to get a 32mm lug to work on a RR you would need a 25mm offset clamp

RR 2stroke is 20mm clamps, 35mm lugs.  To correct for 32mm lug Yamaha KYBs  you need 23mm clamps for a Beta 4stroke.  At least in the '13-'15 model year range.

Its not the lower clamp design alone when properly torqued.  I have KYBs with close to 300 hrs in those clamps and the uppers are fine.  When torquing the lower clamps, you have to alternate between bolts, barely moving each at one time, until the wrench clicks for each.  9Nm with antiseize on the bolts.  Clean the tubes and clamp bores with contact cleaner and they will not slip.  Sure you could improve the clamp design like the split XTrig type, but its not the root cause of the problem. 

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5 minutes ago, GP said:

RR 2stroke is 20mm clamps, 35mm lugs.  To correct for 32mm lug Yamaha KYBs  you need 23mm clamps for a Beta 4stroke.  At least in the '13-'15 model year range.

 

that's what I thought.  Thanks for the clarification.  I talked with Tim, from Beta USA, and he confirmed all the 4t clamps at 23mm offset

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1 hour ago, weantright said:

Using a Beta wheel you will need a different calibrator bracket. I would have to assume no different bracket is needed for Yamaha wheel on a Yamaha front end.

Right, that's what I'm doing right now. I've got the POW13 caliper hangar to make it work. Dealing with a small bit of stiction in the wheel rotation. I'm curious if I'd need a whole new Yamaha brake caliper if I source the Yamaha front wheel. Unless the caliper is the same on the Beta and Yamaha

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20 minutes ago, GP said:

RR 2stroke is 20mm clamps, 35mm lugs.  To correct for 32mm lug Yamaha KYBs  you need 23mm clamps for a Beta 4stroke.  At least in the '13-'15 model year range.

Its not the lower clamp design alone when properly torqued.  I have KYBs with close to 300 hrs in those clamps and the uppers are fine.  When torquing the lower clamps, you have to alternate between bolts, barely moving each at one time, until the wrench clicks for each.  9Nm with antiseize on the bolts.  Clean the tubes and clamp bores with contact cleaner and they will not slip.  Sure you could improve the clamp design like the split XTrig type, but its not the root cause of the problem. 

Thanks for the correction. XT's must be 22mm.

2 minutes ago, OscarFox said:

Right, that's what I'm doing right now. I've got the POW13 caliper hangar to make it work. Dealing with a small bit of stiction in the wheel rotation. I'm curious if I'd need a whole new Yamaha brake caliper if I source the Yamaha front wheel. Unless the caliper is the same on the Beta and Yamaha

POW106 was the one I used. Bolts right on the fork bottom clamp and uses stock caliber. Use of odometer is gone.

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Just now, weantright said:

Thanks for the correction. XT's must be 22mm.

POW106 was the one I used. Bolts right on the fork bottom clamp and uses stock caliber. Use of odometer is gone.

This came off a setup that was previously used on a 300 so it should work. Speedo hole is drilled but just doesn't line up right. Installed an hour meter since that's all I really care for.

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1 hour ago, GP said:

RR 2stroke is 20mm clamps, 35mm lugs.  To correct for 32mm lug Yamaha KYBs  you need 23mm clamps for a Beta 4stroke.  At least in the '13-'15 model year range.

Its not the lower clamp design alone when properly torqued.  I have KYBs with close to 300 hrs in those clamps and the uppers are fine.  When torquing the lower clamps, you have to alternate between bolts, barely moving each at one time, until the wrench clicks for each.  9Nm with antiseize on the bolts.  Clean the tubes and clamp bores with contact cleaner and they will not slip.  Sure you could improve the clamp design like the split XTrig type, but its not the root cause of the problem. 

I agree it's not the clamps alone.  More of a combination of the whole system.  The tubes are different on the '18 compared to the '17.  Be curious to measure and compare wall thickness of the tubes.  I also torque to 9 nm. Only I do so without any lube.  Just clean the threads each time.  They were probably over-torqued from the factory.  I had 6 hours break in time on mine and one tube was shot.  I should take a pic of the bores in my lower clamps.  Hideous finish with chatter marks.  The one side looks like they snapped an endmill.  I'm not sure who is making the clamps.

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32 minutes ago, moto367 said:

I agree it's not the clamps alone.  More of a combination of the whole system.  The tubes are different on the '18 compared to the '17.  Be curious to measure and compare wall thickness of the tubes.  I also torque to 9 nm. Only I do so without any lube.  Just clean the threads each time.  They were probably over-torqued from the factory.  I had 6 hours break in time on mine and one tube was shot.  I should take a pic of the bores in my lower clamps.  Hideous finish with chatter marks.  The one side looks like they snapped an endmill.  I'm not sure who is making the clamps.

I had 48 Zokes last 20 hrs, and I have always torqued my forks the same proper way.  Bushing grabbed the inner wall and actually scraped raw aluminum shards off.  This was after day at MX track so higher flex than normal.  I have said before I think its a combination of soft coatings, and not enough bushing clearance to allow "rocking" in the groove during flex.  Funny how the KYBs have no real issues and they are not hard coated, no production forks are.  Just good tolerances.  Motion Pro alignment tool is a very good investment too.

Guys buying these ebay KYBs be aware all it takes is some dumb ass teenager with no clue what a torque wrench is to make a good set bad.  There is some real hacked up forks out there, expect to refurbish at best.  Some of these forks floating around are over ten years old.  I bought mine as brand new take offs for that reason.  You could do a total rebuild with hardcoat on uppers, cartridges, and rods and be set for a long time.

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29 minutes ago, GP said:

I had 48 Zokes last 20 hrs, and I have always torqued my forks the same proper way.  Bushing grabbed the inner wall and actually scraped raw aluminum shards off.  This was after day at MX track so higher flex than normal.  I have said before I think its a combination of soft coatings, and not enough bushing clearance to allow "rocking" in the groove during flex.  Funny how the KYBs have no real issues and they are not hard coated, no production forks are.  Just good tolerances.  Motion Pro alignment tool is a very good investment too.

Guys buying these ebay KYBs be aware all it takes is some dumb ass teenager with no clue what a torque wrench is to make a good set bad.  There is some real hacked up forks out there, expect to refurbish at best.  Some of these forks floating around are over ten years old.  I bought mine as brand new take offs for that reason.  You could do a total rebuild with hardcoat on uppers, cartridges, and rods and be set for a long time.

 What do you call good tolerance between bushing and tubes?

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3 hours ago, jpbova said:

My reading comprehension is poor.  22 + 35 = 57mm of total offset 2t RR.  In order to get a 32mm lug to work on a RR you would need a 25mm offset clamp

It appears my memory comprehension is poor!

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39 minutes ago, moto367 said:

 What do you call good tolerance between bushing and tubes?

I can't tell you absolutes, but I think that would be dependent on the thickness and flex characteristics of the tubes.  Ultimately, the bushing has to negotiate the area of the lower clamp and just below without excess friction.  It has to have both clearance between itself and the center(high spot) of the land, and be able to rock to track flex. 

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I purchased my 4t clamp, and the invoice is coming through on my yz250f KYB forks with the axle included. Talked to my tuner and he said he would make my spacers for me when I bring my forks to be valved. Just need POW106 and I'm done. 

Another thing I did after reading so many good reviews on the tool is bought motion pro alignment tool

 

thanks to weantright, GP, and MartyMoose for all the info. This really isn't as hard as it seems when you digest all the info. It's just a mouthful of info

Edited by jpbova
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9 hours ago, GP said:

RR 2stroke is 20mm clamps, 35mm lugs.  To correct for 32mm lug Yamaha KYBs  you need 23mm clamps for a Beta 4stroke.  At least in the '13-'15 model year range.

Its not the lower clamp design alone when properly torqued.  I have KYBs with close to 300 hrs in those clamps and the uppers are fine.  When torquing the lower clamps, you have to alternate between bolts, barely moving each at one time, until the wrench clicks for each.  9Nm with antiseize on the bolts.  Clean the tubes and clamp bores with contact cleaner and they will not slip.  Sure you could improve the clamp design like the split XTrig type, but its not the root cause of the problem. 

What would 9NM relate to in ft lbs if not using antiseize? Thanks.

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