AIR FILTER OIL. Anyone know this?

[crypto666]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:27 PM, ThrustWasher said:

On 3/23/2018 at 6:14 PM, crypto666 said:

What does the silicone do inside the engine when it doesn't burn and does not mix well with organic oil? 
Hopefully his bike isn't FI and using an o2 sensor, because that will be the first to go...

If the oil is tacky enough which most rc filter oil is and he doesnt overdo it there will be no issues.

But there could be issues, and as long as those issues don't exceed $10 in cost, there will be some marginal benefit to using a product for a use it was not intended for. 

[ThrustWasher]

But there could be issues, and as long as those issues don't exceed $10 in cost, there will be some marginal benefit to using a product for a use it was not intended for. 

There could be issues if he doesn't tighten down his filter enough as well. You can play the what if game all day, the product is intended for foam air filters and off road nitro engines are put through worse conditions then most dirt bikes. My nitro motors are coated in dirt after a hour long race and the filter is exposed directly in the elements.

 

[crypto666]

On 3/25/2018 at 2:15 PM, ThrustWasher said:

There could be issues if he doesn't tighten down his filter enough as well. You can play the what if game all day, the product is intended for foam air filters and off road nitro engines are put through worse conditions then most dirt bikes. My nitro motors are coated in dirt after a hour long race and the filter is exposed directly in the elements.

 

The key words being "intended for nitro engines."

When the oil analysis comes back and says there is heavy silicon contamination, you'll know why.

Edited March 27, 2018 by crypto666

[crypto666]

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=49741

 

Quote

Automotive expert Professor Malcolm Fox, from the University of Leeds, said all the signs pointed towards some form of liquid silicone having got into the fuel. He added: "The analysis from the suppliers shows that the fuel is okay, so it must be a very minor, low concentration contaminant. "When it burns, it will form silicon dioxide and will deposit a very thin sheet on the sensor - the sensor is in the exhaust - and that probably gives a false signal to the engine computer." 

 

There is only one way to find out if the silicone oil used in toy car diffs, shocks, and air filters will be converted to silicon dioxide inside a gasoline engine.....and there is only one way to find out what silicon dioxide does to rings and cylinders, and valves, and bearings......

 

Run that shizzle, run it all, put it on the inside and outside of the airbox, &^$@ it, who cares, use it like cheap aftershave....chicks dig it, and you will gain horsepower.  

[BillDirt1]

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=49741
 

Automotive expert Professor Malcolm Fox, from the University of Leeds, said all the signs pointed towards some form of liquid silicone having got into the fuel. He added: "The analysis from the suppliers shows that the fuel is okay, so it must be a very minor, low concentration contaminant. "When it burns, it will form silicon dioxide and will deposit a very thin sheet on the sensor - the sensor is in the exhaust - and that probably gives a false signal to the engine computer." 

 
There is only one way to find out if the silicone oil used in toy car diffs, shocks, and air filters will be converted to silicon dioxide inside a gasoline engine.....and there is only one way to find out what silicon dioxide does to rings and cylinders, and valves, and bearings......
 
Run that shizzle, run it all, put it on the inside and outside of the airbox, &^$@ it, who cares, use it like cheap aftershave....chicks dig it, and you will gain horsepower.  

Plus, in a pinch, you could mix it in your gas !

[ThrustWasher]

The key words being "intended for nitro engines."

When the oil analysis comes back and says there is heavy silicon contamination, you'll know why.

The same oil used for air filters in nitro engines is also used for air filters in gasoline powered rc cars. But im sure you knew that. Also where on the bottle does it say intended for nitro engines only.

 

[crypto666]

28 minutes ago, ThrustWasher said:

The same oil used for air filters in nitro engines is also used for air filters in gasoline powered rc cars. But im sure you knew that. Also where on the bottle does it say intended for nitro engines only.

 

That's all fine and good considering the source, but the preponderance of evidence I have before me is that there are possible negative issues associated with silicone in a gasoline combustion engine.  

In addition to the model car enthusiast, and in spite of the published reports regarding combustion engines and silicone (including the case study (2007)), do you have any other sources that can ensure there are no negative consequences to using multipurpose silicone hobby oil instead of a use specific product?

Motor oil is a safer bet and has been used for years, cooking oil also, atf, etc. 

Silicone oil has only been used once that I know of, and that was Steve McQueen back in 1977 when he was stranded south of vegas with a dead stripper, and he didn't exactly publish his results. 

Canola oil works. 

The reason rc model enthusiasts buy silicon air filter oil is because that is what they are sold at a premium price by a manufacturer who is repackaging the same product already in the inventory.  

May I suggest extra virgin olive oil?  Get at costco by the case.

[MotoTribology]

Those oils are a type of dimethyl siloxane I believe. Totally inert in any foreseeable situation they'd be put into. Silicon based compounds don't just turn into sand when around oxygen.

[crypto666]

As long as it isn't atomic oxygen, and/or UV.   However, I see repeated claims that silicones can destroy o2 sensors by depositing/precipitating silicon oxide, hence the fuel issue in the UK in 2007.

I hate wiki, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_petrol_contamination

The reason I hate wiki is because if you follow the citations, they either lead no where, or back to themselves.  None the less, there is still more evidence suggesting silicone is not ok for gasoline engines than there is saying it is an acceptable use.

RC enthusiasts vs. wikipedia, I just can't really decide which one to go with... 

Edited March 27, 2018 by crypto666

[MotoTribology]

Well yes, you do not want silicone getting into the engine since it won't mix well with the gasoline or any oil and could disrupt the films, but the point is you should not be getting air filter oil into the engine. It is supposed to stay in the air filter. If he is applying it correctly and not overdoing it, it should never make it into the engine. I rather not have any filter oil going into my engine, silicon or not.

Edited March 27, 2018 by MotoTribology

[crypto666]

1 hour ago, MotoTribology said:

Well yes, you do not want silicone getting into the engine since it won't mix well with the gasoline or any oil and could disrupt the films, but the point is you should not be getting air filter oil into the engine. It is supposed to stay in the air filter. If he is applying it correctly and not overdoing it, it should never make it into the engine. I rather not have any filter oil going into my engine, silicon or not.

But the reality is that is does get in to the engine...even if it is applied "correctly."

 

[MotoTribology]

39 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

But the reality is that is does get in to the engine...even if it is applied "correctly."

 

Mine doesn't 

I suppose if you went down to the ppm level you might find some oil vapors making their way in, but that will never result in an observable effect. Large quantities certainly will, but not what will evaporate due to air flow through the filter.

[crypto666]

3 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

Mine doesn't 

I suppose if you went down to the ppm level you might find some oil vapors making their way in, but that will never result in an observable effect. Large quantities certainly will, but not what will evaporate due to air flow through the filter.

Are you using 100% silicone oil from your rc car?

What tests have you performed to know that you are not sucking any filter oil in to the engine?  It seems to be a well supported fact that a freshly oiled filter will have less flow initially until some of the excess oil is ingested by the engine or until it drips to the bottom of the box.  

Also, any vapors are going to be solvent, not the oil itself.  If the oil is volatilizing at ambient temperatures it is garbage and probably shouldn't be used.   

[MotoTribology]

58 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

Are you using 100% silicone oil from your rc car?

What tests have you performed to know that you are not sucking any filter oil in to the engine?  It seems to be a well supported fact that a freshly oiled filter will have less flow initially until some of the excess oil is ingested by the engine or until it drips to the bottom of the box.  

Also, any vapors are going to be solvent, not the oil itself.  If the oil is volatilizing at ambient temperatures it is garbage and probably shouldn't be used.   

No, I'm not using silicone, but that is not relevant to the topic of whether it will leave the filter and enter the engine.

I can see that the oil I applied to the filter is still in the filter and no significant amount has "disappeared". If you are doing it correctly, there is no excess oil to be ingested by the engine, or drip off the filter. The well supported fact you are thinking of is people do not properly oil their filters.

If you are doing it right, there aren't any solvents left to evaporate by the time it is installed.

Of course there are volatiles in oil. Oil is fractioned off through distillation columns and the purity of each fraction can only get so high. There are always some amount of lighter fractions in the higher oil viscosities. Hence, there are always at least a tiny amount of volatile organic compounds in any oil. That is why I mentioned that it would only be in the range of PPM measurements, because it is unlikely any more than that would evaporate, but it is still there.

[ThrustWasher]

But the reality is that is does get in to the engine...even if it is applied "correctly."

 

Mine doesn't you're obviously not doing it right. If it was there would be traces of oil inside my air boot which there is none.

 

[crypto666]

19 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

No, I'm not using silicone, but that is not relevant to the topic of whether it will leave the filter and enter the engine.

I can see that the oil I applied to the filter is still in the filter and no significant amount has "disappeared". If you are doing it correctly, there is no excess oil to be ingested by the engine, or drip off the filter. The well supported fact you are thinking of is people do not properly oil their filters.

If you are doing it right, there aren't any solvents left to evaporate by the time it is installed.

Of course there are volatiles in oil. Oil is fractioned off through distillation columns and the purity of each fraction can only get so high. There are always some amount of lighter fractions in the higher oil viscosities. Hence, there are always at least a tiny amount of volatile organic compounds in any oil. That is why I mentioned that it would only be in the range of PPM measurements, because it is unlikely any more than that would evaporate, but it is still there.

Silicone oil is the topic.

The only way you are going to keep air filter oil from being ingested by the engine is to not use any oil.  Your air box is not utopia.  

There are not any organic compounds in 100% silicone oil, and it does not mix well with organic compounds such as used in premix.  

I have not seen a motorcycle or atv, new or otherwise, recreational or racing, novice or pro, that does not have some amount of oil in the the airbox or boot.  

That is why even no-toil makes "air box cleaner."  Or do you suppose that a majority of people riding motorcycles improperly oil their filters?  

 

16 hours ago, ThrustWasher said:

Mine doesn't you're obviously not doing it right. If it was there would be traces of oil inside my air boot which there is none.

 

Yeh, I don't believe that for a second.

[MotoTribology]

49 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

Or do you suppose that a majority of people riding motorcycles improperly oil their filters?  

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that a majority of people improperly oil their air filters.

55 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

Silicone oil is the topic.

The response, which had nothing to do with silicone, was to your assertion that all air filters release oil into the engine; so, no.

57 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

The only way you are going to keep air filter oil from being ingested by the engine is to not use any oil.  Your air box is not utopia.  

Again, mine doesn't and a properly oiled filter should not introduce any measurable amount of oil to the engine; so no.

58 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

There are not any organic compounds in 100% silicone oil, and it does not mix well with organic compounds such as used in premix.  

The comment had nothing to do with silicone. My comment about volatile compounds was in response to your assertion that oils had no volatile components, which they do, and construing it to make it seem like I was saying oils used to make air filter oils might completely volatilize at ambient temperatures.

1 hour ago, crypto666 said:

I have not seen a motorcycle or atv, new or otherwise, recreational or racing, novice or pro, that does not have some amount of oil in the the airbox or boot.  

Then you have not seen a machine with a properly oiled filter, which explains a lot of your beliefs on this topic.

[ThrustWasher]

Yeh, I don't believe that for a second.

No toil makes a airbox cleaner because of people like you who will buy it, because they think they need it when all you really have to do is properly oil your filter. I'm just curious how you got to walk around the pro bikes close enough to inspect inside the air boots to look for residual oil in the air boots.

 

[crypto666]

33 minutes ago, ThrustWasher said:

No toil makes a airbox cleaner because of people like you who will buy it, because they think they need it when all you really have to do is properly oil your filter. I'm just curious how you got to walk around the pro bikes close enough to inspect inside the air boots to look for residual oil in the air boots.

 

Never bought it in my life.  I use chain cleaner for cleaning pretty much everything, which seems to be the same stuff as filter cleaner, which is probably the same stuff as air box cleaner.  This is the same as the rc silicone shock oil, is the same as the rc silicone diff lube, which is the same as the silicone RC filter oil, which no one posting here has ever used in a dirt bike, but is an expert on.

I love how people recommend doing something they have not done and will never do, and don't really know anything about. 

I currently ride and maintain 7 recreational bikes, and help with the maintenance and repairs of 3 race bikes (two of which ended last year with #1 plates), plus 2 UTVs, after 35 years of riding, which includes a number of years as a professional rider, and I have a number of years as an ATV/UTV riding/driving instructor, even though I can't stand riding ATVs.

I promise that every single one of those machines has ingested filter oil in to the engine and currently has filter oil, as well has motor oil or premix in the intake tract, because that is the reality and it cannot be avoided.    

I also have 35 years of playing with RC toys.  

You have filter oil in your intake tract and your engine has ingested filter oil.   

[crypto666]

11 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that a majority of people improperly oil their air filters.

 

Is encouraging them to use left over silicone oil going to help the problem?

 

11 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

 

The response, which had nothing to do with silicone, was to your assertion that all air filters release oil into the engine; so, no.

 

So only you oil your filter properly, and only your engine has never ingested filter oil. 

11 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

Again, mine doesn't and a properly oiled filter should not introduce any measurable amount of oil to the engine; so no.

 

"Measurable" is a little subjective.  What is the safe level of silicone oil that a gas engine can ingest before it becomes detrimental? 

 

11 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

The comment had nothing to do with silicone. My comment about volatile compounds was in response to your assertion that oils had no volatile components, which they do, and construing it to make it seem like I was saying oils used to make air filter oils might completely volatilize at ambient temperatures.

 

You need to read a little closer, I stated "If the oil is volatilizing at ambient temperatures."  You were suppose to assume close to standard pressure.  Otherwise we would just assume that all forms of oil are volatile compounds.  You added the word "completely," so the construing is all you.

 

11 hours ago, MotoTribology said:

Then you have not seen a machine with a properly oiled filter, which explains a lot of your beliefs on this topic.

It doesn't matter that much to me whether my filters are "properly" oiled.  They are oiled according to the instructions and experience.  According to you, most people don't do it correctly.  Which means you must think most people cleaning their own filters are unable to read. 

It really isn't that hard, and if you have ever ridden through a silt bed after class 1s and trick trucks get done with it, you would probably be a little more liberal with the oil.  You would also not even consider using something like a silicone oil that you are not sure of. 

I don't care if the top rc racer in the world said he only won because of silicone oil on his filter, I ain't using it on my bike and I sure as hell am not going to tell someone else to do so.  I learned the hard way that a good single cylinder motor costs as much to build as a decent v8. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by crypto666