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Dal soggio spheres vs mx tech lucky cartridges

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2 minutes ago, lukethedork said:

I wonder how many of the people who swap out the 'cone valve' have adjusted both cone valve (angle) and the spring rate of the valve? Just a guess. But could it be that the cone valves are setup for pro riders, and most of these people who think they are fast just don't have them properly setup for a slower rider?

I have some minor experience with similar valve systems and see no technical reason why the cone valve should be disgustingly stiff.

When you buy CV forks from a WP accredited service center, they come setup for you... Too many people grossly overestimate their speed and aren't honest about how slow they really might be. And when they do come they just bolt them on and don't take the time to actually set them up. My last statement holds true to even a simple revalve on stock suspension. The tuner can get you 80% of the way there but the last 20% (which is the most important) is up to the individual

Also, in my experience, people generally set their suspension up well for when they are their fastest and freshest, or when its just themselves riding. I race offroad and set my suspension up for when I'm 2hrs in and I'm generally starting to slow down and the course gets rougher.

Aftermarket suspension setup poorly is worse then stock suspension setup well... 

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Every one I have spoken to say they are mega stiff, even when @Terry Hay tested them they where to stiff even swapping cones and springs, ended up being better with the mid valve, maybe he will tune in here 

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12 minutes ago, chelder said:

Every one I have spoken to say they are mega stiff, even when @Terry Hay tested them they where to stiff even swapping cones and springs, ended up being better with the mid valve, maybe he will tune in here 

I know CV are stiff. My skepticism is in regards of people swapping to a standard MV. 

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Just now, Hans Schmid said:

I know CV are stiff. My skepticism is in regards of people swapping to a standard MV. 

Fair call I only know 2 people with them and they both have swapped to standard type mid, others on message boards have stated they go back to a standard mid valve, my question is why spend all that money on cones then take them out, they cant be that great...?? 

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3 minutes ago, chelder said:

Fair call I only know 2 people with them and they both have swapped to standard type mid, others on message boards have stated they go back to a standard mid valve, my question is why spend all that money on cones then take them out, they cant be that great...?? 

Well, if you are slow and out of shape riding stock stuff, you are more likely still slow and out of shape riding CV... People don't really understand that...

Many seem to believe that if you buy a set of CV forks your are magically going to be so much faster... Still, at the end of it all you gotta be willing to test and tune... 

As for CVs, they are a better starting point... 

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when @Terry HayHayHayHayHayHayHayHaHHaHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHaHHaH

7 minutes ago, Hans Schmid said:

Well, if you are slow and out of shape riding stock stuff, you are more likely still slow and out of shape riding CV... People don't really understand that...

Many seem to believe that if you buy a set of CV forks your are magically going to be so much faster... Still, at the end of it all you gotta be willing to test and tune... 

As for CVs, they are a better starting point... 

Better starting point then what and for who? 

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Just now, chelder said:

when @Terry HayHayHayHayHayHayHayHaHHaHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHayHaHHaH

Better starting point then what and for who? 

AER are mass production forks, larger tolerances, no coatings... CV have tighter tolerances, CV system, DLC coated lowers... They are a better product then stock forks... 

CV forks are not bad forks, the user is the ultimate factor... Funny, people can't justify CV forks but will go and spend $2k at Kreft for the stock stuff.. 

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10 minutes ago, Hans Schmid said:

AER are mass production forks, larger tolerances, no coatings... CV have tighter tolerances, CV system, DLC coated lowers... They are a better product then stock forks... 

CV forks are not bad forks, the user is the ultimate factor... Funny, people can't justify CV forks but will go and spend $2k at Kreft for the stock stuff.. 

Quite a big price difference between Kreft and Cones....what's a set of cones run? 

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16 minutes ago, chelder said:

Quite a big price difference between Kreft and Cones....what's a set of cones run? 

I think $3200. Used $2500, so a loss of $700. No different then a stock revalve that you definitely won't get back... 

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The CV midvalve influence is dramatic. The medium cones with medium springs makes the fork two and a half times stiffer than a set of Spheres that are working really well for an A grade MXer. Removing the cones all together left us with a fork that had the same overall stiffness as the Dal Soggio's. The softest cone / spring combo was just as stiff as the WP base valve, meaning that if we were to soften the base then the fork would be midvalve dominant......not great. Whilst the pressure spring will provide the additional force required to overcome the mid I would prefer to have the ratios more in my favour to allow for a greater tuning range for lesser riders.

We could argue that the CV fork is aimed at Pro level riders but the fact remains that they are purchased by a wide range of punters......very often the best bike in the pits is ridden by average riders who just love shiny stuff....

Removing the cones and installing a proper mid increases the tuners ability to cover all bases as well as starting with a much better base / mid force ratio.

Today we are testing the new Xact Pro CVs (proper mid...same as Dal Soggio's) against a set of 52mm CVs (red cones / softest springs) and a set of Spheres with Kashima / KYB DLC tubes. A grade MX rider, Husky FC350. We are also testing for tube friction / stiction between the three. Should be interesting. WP are claiming superior anti friction capabilities with their latest design.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hay said:

The CV midvalve influence is dramatic. The medium cones with medium springs makes the fork two and a half times stiffer than a set of Spheres that are working really well for an A grade MXer. Removing the cones all together left us with a fork that had the same overall stiffness as the Dal Soggio's. The softest cone / spring combo was just as stiff as the WP base valve, meaning that if we were to soften the base then the fork would be midvalve dominant......not great. Whilst the pressure spring will provide the additional force required to overcome the mid I would prefer to have the ratios more in my favour to allow for a greater tuning range for lesser riders.

We could argue that the CV fork is aimed at Pro level riders but the fact remains that they are purchased by a wide range of punters......very often the best bike in the pits is ridden by average riders who just love shiny stuff....

Removing the cones and installing a proper mid increases the tuners ability to cover all bases as well as starting with a much better base / mid force ratio.

Today we are testing the new Xact Pro CVs (proper mid...same as Dal Soggio's) against a set of 52mm CVs (red cones / softest springs) and a set of Spheres with Kashima / KYB DLC tubes. A grade MX rider, Husky FC350. We are also testing for tube friction / stiction between the three. Should be interesting. WP are claiming superior anti friction capabilities with their latest design.

Always love your insight Terry thank you! 

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On 1/12/2020 at 2:44 PM, Hans Schmid said:

I think $3200. Used $2500, so a loss of $700. No different then a stock revalve that you definitely won't get back... 

So in Australia your looking at $5100 for Cone Valves, plus another $350 for a Gold Valve mid valve, add say $500-$700 to have the best in the business set them up (Terry)  and your up over $6000

 

Now could get Dal Soggio's set up are about $2000, want DLC tubes get the KYB tubes say another $500, cones don't come with Kashima but if you want it add another $600 so for half the price you can have a bet set up and still sell the Spheres when you done....I know which way I'd go.

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1 hour ago, chelder said:

So in Australia your looking at $5100 for Cone Valves, plus another $350 for a Gold Valve mid valve, add say $500-$700 to have the best in the business set them up (Terry)  and your up over $6000

 

Now could get Dal Soggio's set up are about $2000, want DLC tubes get the KYB tubes say another $500, cones don't come with Kashima but if you want it add another $600 so for half the price you can have a bet set up and still sell the Spheres when you done....I know which way I'd go.

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make? 

 

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1 minute ago, Hans Schmid said:

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make? 

 

That they are expensive and not really that great for the average A grade rider, there are better cheaper options.

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1 hour ago, chelder said:

That they are expensive and not really that great for the average A grade rider, there are better cheaper options.

I would agree with that statement on most things related to dirtbikes. You don't need a new KTM, nor will it make you a better rider then a guy cruising around on a well setup 01 CR250... But, a new KTM is a better starting point with some of the features it offers, and if you have FU money, why not? 

Dal Soggio Spheres are great, but I would guarantee with the same amount of time I put into my Dal Soggio Spheres, I could get something better with a set of CV forks... 

 

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8 minutes ago, Hans Schmid said:

I would agree with that statement on most things related to dirtbikes. You don't need a new KTM, nor will it make you a better rider then a guy cruising around on a well setup 01 CR250... But, a new KTM is a better starting point with some of the features it offers, and if you have FU money, why not? 

Dal Soggio Spheres are great, but I would guarantee with the same amount of time I put into my Dal Soggio Spheres, I could get something better with a set of CV forks... 

 

I doubt that very much that you could make a set of cones as good as Spheres for a wide variety of riders, maybe for a national top15 rider yes but not for ne.

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5 minutes ago, chelder said:

I doubt that very much that you could make a set of cones as good as Spheres for a wide variety of riders, maybe for a national top15 rider yes but not for ne.

I've owned Spheres, I have a pretty good understanding of how good they can be made to work. 

Though I believe you have to have some caliber of speed to have a better understanding of the limitations of a dirtbike, there are plenty of guys who have never been even close to the top and work as test riders for all the major manufacturers. 

The funniest part is you are telling me what I can and can't do when it comes to my suspension on my bike...lol

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5 minutes ago, Hans Schmid said:

I've owned Spheres, I have a pretty good understanding of how good they can be made to work. 

Though I believe you have to have some caliber of speed to have a better understanding of the limitations of a dirtbike, there are plenty of guys who have never been even close to the top and work as test riders for all the major manufacturers. 

The funniest part is you are telling me what I can and can't do when it comes to my suspension on my bike...lol

Nah I'm not telling you what to do, I actually don't know how I got to this point hahaha anyway can't wait to hear some feedback from @Terry Hay

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Just now, Hans Schmid said:

Have you ever even got services from Terry? Or are you just one of those guys who just wastes everyones time but never actually buys anything? 

Yep buy heaps he's the race tech dealer in Australia fitted a Gold valve literally last night I brought off him, I place an order about 3 times a month. I'll be ordering some seals today actually as I'm down to my last set of 48mm KYB's

20200114_220242.jpg

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