So why is the L " so heavy" ? Is it really? What are you comparing it to ?

[FORMA MOTO]

Comparing the new 2019 CRF450L to ANY other 'dirt oriented' dual sport is just not a good comparison, because Honda is not trying to compete directly with them. They are actually re-creating the XRL days, only with a much more high performance platform.

We have to remember that the L model meets ALL  DOT, EPA, and USFS requirements to the letter, unlike the Eurobrands, as well as typical Honda 'long term use' design elements.

All of this is 'engineered in' on purpose, not a 'shortcut' to save money. Honda XR/XRR/XRL/CRFL's have always been designed for a 'lifetime' of use, not 2 or 3 years. Most KTM owners don't understand this, unless they owned a 2004-2007 models (RFS).

Metal gas tank (DRZ, XRL, and CRFL's only). This is actually an epa requirement that gets 'excused' for some smaller brands

evaporative canister that does not fill with gas (CRFL's only)

Exhaust that MUST last 5 years with the stock noise and spark arresting configuration (like cars) (CRFL, DRZ)

Noise specs that far exceed the minimum req, (the new CRFL has a gel filled swingarm, rubber backed sprockets, encapsulated cs sprocket, fully baffled intake)

Cush rear hub (only KTM 690 on up)

Multiple fastener design to everything (unlike typical KTM one bolt stuff that works when it works)

Less plastic bits (metal cable management, instead of plastic that fails in year two, and no Dzus fasteners that come un riveted in a year)

Thicker Plastics gthroughout (always has been the case with Honda when comparing the CRFR to CRFX or CRFL)

Lifttime trans parts (no aluminum or plastic of any kind inside the transmission or oil pump or starter clutch, unlike KTM. Beta offers aftermarket.)

All of this stuff adds weight.....ON PURPOSE! It's not low-tech, it's long term engineeered.

Honda and Yamaha's philosophy is to build the bike to last a lifetime (XR/CRFL), not a couple of seasons.

If you don't want that as part of the package, you should understand it, and move on.  Get an X and plate it, or Get and EXC/FE/Beta and enjoy it for what it is. 

But to say that 'Honda missed the boat' or 'too little too late' is just not accurate.  It's not designed to compete with the performance of the KTM. It designed to 'out dual sport' any other full dual sport bike currently made, which it does, by a wide margin.

 

[RawbW]

Hey, 289 lbs with fuel and everything is heavy, but manageable all things considered. I think it’s a good effort and a machine the world needed.

[Torchsport]

Gotta be at least 30 lbs lighter than say a DRZ400.

[NoFiddyPilot]

25 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

 

But to say that 'Honda missed the boat' or 'too little too late' is just not accurate.  It's not designed to compete with the performance of the KTM. It designed to 'out dual sport' any other full dual sport bike currently made, which it does, by a wide margin.

 

I like the CRF450L and I'll eat my words if I'm wrong when I ride one, but I don't see it beating my 690 Enduro R as a dual sport by a "wide margin". It's lighter for sure, but the 690 has better mass centralization with the low & between the wheels fuel cell. It also has just as much suspension & brakes, and a lot more power. It also carries 1.2 more gallons stock and has switchable ABS which is awesome when riding on wet tarmac. The 690 also holds 1700cc of oil and two filters vs. 1150cc and I believe one oil filter. The service intervals on the 690 are very, very long. In fact, longer than I'm comfortable with. I know these have no been announced for the 450L, but they will be shorter IMHO based upon the oil capacity.

That said, I really like the 450L and what Honda is doing, But, I think your assessment of there is no full dual sport that touches it is not considering the entire landscape of bikes. However, given your disdain for the KTM brand having killed off-road, I can see the skew. ?

[highmarker]

23 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

Comparing the new 2019 CRF450L to ANY other 'dirt oriented' dual sport is just not a good comparison, because Honda is not trying to compete directly with them. They are actually re-creating the XRL days, only with a much more high performance platform.

We have to remember that the L model meets ALL  DOT, EPA, and USFS requirements to the letter, unlike the Eurobrands, as well as typical Honda 'long term use' design elements.

All of this is 'engineered in' on purpose, not a 'shortcut' to save money. Honda XR/XRR/XRL/CRFL's have always been designed for a 'lifetime' of use, not 2 or 3 years. Most KTM owners don't understand this, unless they owned a 2004-2007 models (RFS).

Metal gas tank (DRZ, XRL, and CRFL's only). This is actually an epa requirement that gets 'excused' for some smaller brands

evaporative canister that does not fill with gas (CRFL's only)

Exhaust that MUST last 5 years with the stock noise and spark arresting configuration (like cars) (CRFL, DRZ)

Noise specs that far exceed the minimum req, (the new CRFL has a gel filled swingarm, rubber backed sprockets, encapsulated cs sprocket, fully baffled intake)

Cush rear hub (only KTM 690 on up)

Multiple fastener design to everything (unlike typical KTM one bolt stuff that works when it works)

Less plastic bits (metal cable management, instead of plastic that fails in year two, and no Dzus fasteners that come un riveted in a year)

Thicker Plastics gthroughout (always has been the case with Honda when comparing the CRFR to CRFX or CRFL)

Lifttime trans parts (no aluminum or plastic of any kind inside the transmission or oil pump or starter clutch, unlike KTM. Beta offers aftermarket.)

All of this stuff adds weight.....ON PURPOSE! It's not low-tech, it's long term engineeered.

Honda and Yamaha's philosophy is to build the bike to last a lifetime (XR/CRFL), not a couple of seasons.

If you don't want that as part of the package, you should understand it, and move on.  Get an X and plate it, or Get and EXC/FE/Beta and enjoy it for what it is. 

But to say that 'Honda missed the boat' or 'too little too late' is just not accurate.  It's not designed to compete with the performance of the KTM. It designed to 'out dual sport' any other full dual sport bike currently made, which it does, by a wide margin.

 

I view it as between a dr400 and a 450exc.  

[stewart_frank]

47 minutes ago, Torchsport said:

Gotta be at least 30 lbs lighter than say a DRZ400.

It's almost 60 lbs lighter than a XR650L! That being said if I end up getting one it's going on a serious diet!

 

Stew

[sneaky98gt]

44 minutes ago, RawbW said:

Hey, 289 lbs with fuel and everything is heavy, but manageable all things considered. I think it’s a good effort and a machine the world needed.

289 pounds, completely loaded, 100% ready to ride, with fuel, is actually pretty darn good (if that's actually the case).  Contrary to most manufacturer's posted specs, and their fan-boys that run around spouting off said posted specs, there are virtually no non-MX 4-strokes on the market that actually weigh less than 250 pounds full of fuel.  As in, actually put the bike full of fluids, ready to ride, on a calibrated scale, and weigh it.  The small-bore bikes are usually 250-260, and the big-bore bikes are 265-275.  

So in reality, if the advertised 289 is correct, that's 15-25 pounds more than similarly powered bikes, and 30-40 pounds heavier than the small-bore bikes.  Considering all the additional mandatory dual-sport equipment that the bike comes with, as well as the other less-mandatory-but-still-a-good-idea stuff covered in the OP, that's a very reasonable weight penalty there, IMO.

[RawbW]

8 minutes ago, sneaky98gt said:

289 pounds, completely loaded, 100% ready to ride, with fuel, is actually pretty darn good (if that's actually the case).  Contrary to most manufacturer's posted specs, and their fan-boys that run around spouting off said posted specs, there are virtually no non-MX 4-strokes on the market that actually weigh less than 250 pounds full of fuel.  As in, actually put the bike full of fluids, ready to ride, on a calibrated scale, and weigh it.  The small-bore bikes are usually 250-260, and the big-bore bikes are 265-275.  

So in reality, if the advertised 289 is correct, that's 15-25 pounds more than similarly powered bikes, and 30-40 pounds heavier than the small-bore bikes.  Considering all the additional mandatory dual-sport equipment that the bike comes with, as well as the other less-mandatory-but-still-a-good-idea stuff covered in the OP, that's a very reasonable weight penalty there, IMO.

I’m actually pretty impressed. I was expecting a lot more weight and there isn’t.when you look at wr450f and Rmx weight it’s pretty good. Ktm weight it is not, but this baby is made to be ultra durable?

[wheresbrent]

The 450L lands perfectly in the middle of acceptal and realisitic weights (below 300 above 250). The added weight from robust design like Kran explained. Just what I wanted. More power and lighter than the 250L by a good margin, win/win. However, based on that 1.2 qt oil capacity, what the interval's could be has me a little nervous. Please be at least 2000mi, please be at least 2000mi .
Hopefully the slightly relaxed L variant has extended maintenance intervals to the R's and X's. Its the only doubt I have had cast so far.

[highmarker]

Have to wait for a ride, but what concerns me is how far they went to Californicate it.  How hard will it be to de restrict it ? Or will it run good the way it is?  If the weight has purpose, like subframe that can handle woops with luggage, ok with that. But if its steel where they could have used aluminum to cheap out, not so much.

[sneaky98gt]

3 hours ago, RawbW said:

...Ktm weight it is not...

But that's exactly what I was talking about when referencing actual weight.  Virtually any literature you see about, say a KTM 500 EXC-F, says it weighs "251 pounds".  When you do some more digging, though, that 251 is a dry weight, and usually a pretty optimistic one.  Add fuel, engine oil, transmission oil, fork oil, shock oil, brake fluids, and coolant, and the actual number is a LOT more than that.  Typically, all of the fluids in a modern bike with a 2.5ish gallon gas tank total around 30 pounds.  So that "251 pounds" suddenly becomes an actual 281 pounds, which is nowhere near as much an advantage over 289 pounds that it seems at first glance, especially when you consider what they're giving up to get it there.

Ever notice how few people actually post the real weights of their bikes?  It's because either A) they don't want to know, or B] are too embarrassed to tell anyone because it's so much more than they thought.

All of this, of course, assuming the 450L actually weighs 289 pounds.  That said, of the Honda bikes that I've put on calibrated scales myself, their advertised "ready-to-ride" weight has always been within the margin of error of simply different tires / tubes, so I imagine 289 is probably +/- 5 of what it actually is.

[FORMA MOTO]

6 minutes ago, sneaky98gt said:

But that's exactly what I was talking about when referencing actual weight.  Virtually any literature you see about, say a KTM 500 EXC-F, says it weighs "251 pounds".  When you do some more digging, though, that 251 is a dry weight, and usually a pretty optimistic one.  Add fuel, engine oil, transmission oil, fork oil, shock oil, brake fluids, and coolant, and the actual number is a LOT more than that.  Typically, all of the fluids in a modern bike with a 2.5ish gallon gas tank total around 30 pounds.  So that "251 pounds" suddenly becomes an actual 281 pounds, which is nowhere near as much an advantage over 289 pounds that it seems at first glance, especially when you consider what they're giving up to get it there.

Ever notice how few people actually post the real weights of their bikes?  It's because either A) they don't want to know, or B] are too embarrassed to tell anyone because it's so much more than they thought.

All of this, of course, assuming the 450L actually weighs 289 pounds.  That said, of the Honda bikes that I've put on calibrated scales myself, their advertised "ready-to-ride" weight has always been within the margin of error of simply different tires / tubes, so I imagine 289 is probably +/- 5 of what it actually is.

^^ stop this man ! ^^  

He is pulling back the Curtain, exposing the 'Wizard' behind it. 

" You just hate KTM's. Mine is no where near 280lbs "

I weighed my buddies 2016 500exc with a 3.2 gallon tank, real handgaurds, TMD skidplate, sharkfin, CS protector, with mirror and gps mounts...........268lbs with 2.0gal....

IF you put in the Dal Saggio fork cartridges (what it would take to bring it into Showa territory) you would be adding 3 more pounds.

Edited May 24, 2018 by THE KRAN

[dezracerE]

If I can bench press it...it's not too much.

This bike is already on my future list...but by the time I get it- I probably won't be able to bench press it...conundrum...

[basalt]

What do we know about the motor? I saw 24hp somewhere...

Is it the 450x motor all choked up or is it just a dog?

[Woodzi]

It's lighter than an XR600, which is one of the few bikes I wish I had kept. The 600 was the most versatile, fun bike I have ever owned. The 450L looks like it could top it. 

Lighter is always better from a performance perspective, but I chose my 250R over a 10 LB lighter KTM because I figured that the extra weight was all going towards durability - and at 228LB, it is still a relatively light bike.

[Woodzi]

20 minutes ago, basalt said:

What do we know about the motor? I saw 24hp somewhere...

Is it the 450x motor all choked up or is it just a dog?

I thought the 250L was around 24HP. The 450 should be somewhere in the low-mid 40's I would imagine. 

[RawbW]

47 minutes ago, basalt said:

What do we know about the motor? I saw 24hp somewhere...

Is it the 450x motor all choked up or is it just a dog?

I think the 25 hp was a euro standards thing. Honda hasn’t stated the us spec hp level, but predicts in the 40s

[RLTrail]

2 hours ago, basalt said:

Is it the 450x motor all choked up or is it just a dog?

The 450X and 450L are both modified 450R engines. It looks like the X and L share the same specs but with different cams and ECU mappings.

This is from an ADVpulse article:

"The layout and overall appearance of the CRF450L’s engine is nearly identical to the X’s with some notable exceptions to make the L street legal more appropriate for street riding. The X and L have the same bore and stroke and a milder 12.0:1 compression ratio compared to the R’s 13.5:1. The L also has its own cam profile and cam timing for more controllable power off-road. There is 12 percent more crank inertia than the R to give more traction and better control in tight off-road terrain. As mentioned above, a major difference is the six-speed transmission. This is sure to make street riding and longer stints on asphalt a less buzzy, more enjoyable experience. The ECU has a dedicated setting on the L and there is a single-sided exhaust system rather than the dual silencers on the competition models."

[FTUO]

The 450X and 450L are both modified 450R engines. It looks like the X and L share the same specs but with different cams and ECU mappings.
This is from an ADVpulse article:
"The layout and overall appearance of the CRF450L’s engine is nearly identical to the X’s with some notable exceptions to make the L street legal more appropriate for street riding. The X and L have the same bore and stroke and a milder 12.0:1 compression ratio compared to the R’s 13.5:1. The L also has its own cam profile and cam timing for more controllable power off-road. There is 12 percent more crank inertia than the R to give more traction and better control in tight off-road terrain. As mentioned above, a major difference is the six-speed transmission. This is sure to make street riding and longer stints on asphalt a less buzzy, more enjoyable experience. The ECU has a dedicated setting on the L and there is a single-sided exhaust system rather than the dual silencers on the competition models."

Has a third piston ring as well.

[redrider144]

On 5/24/2018 at 1:00 PM, Bryan Bosch said:

I like the CRF450L and I'll eat my words if I'm wrong when I ride one, but I don't see it beating my 690 Enduro R as a dual sport by a "wide margin". It's lighter for sure, but the 690 has better mass centralization with the low & between the wheels fuel cell. It also has just as much suspension & brakes, and a lot more power. It also carries 1.2 more gallons stock and has switchable ABS which is awesome when riding on wet tarmac. The 690 also holds 1700cc of oil and two filters vs. 1150cc and I believe one oil filter. The service intervals on the 690 are very, very long. In fact, longer than I'm comfortable with. I know these have no been announced for the 450L, but they will be shorter IMHO based upon the oil capacity.

That said, I really like the 450L and what Honda is doing, But, I think your assessment of there is no full dual sport that touches it is not considering the entire landscape of bikes. However, given your disdain for the KTM brand having killed off-road, I can see the skew. ?

What does the 690 weigh with the equivalent of a full tank on a 450L?