2017 KTM 500 EXC-F Wont Run!

[ch3go]

Just bought a 2017 KTM 500 EXC-F with only 3.5 hours. Wouldnt start, I took it to the local KTM shop and discovered the pump wasn't pumping enough fuel. I replaced the fuel pump with a CA Cyleworks fuel pump. The bike now fired up. It wouldn't idle for more than 10-30 seconds but was ridable, however, suffered hesitation and bogging down when rolling on the throttle. I replaced the fuel injector and now it will start after several tries and run for a few seconds then die. I have fiddled with the idle screw with no success, its currently maxed out and doesn't seem to change the results regardless of the position of the idle screw or the cold start screw. I've checked the fuses and connectors and nothing seems out of place. I'm currently at a loss...oh and yes the fuel is fresh, and the battery terminals are tight...Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Jeff aka Bolt]

Why isn't this a warranty issue and a KTM problem ?  

[cbsmithvc]

Check your spark plug cap. I tore it on my 250 exc-f and I experienced similar problems to what your facing. Took forever to figure out what was wrong with it.

[ch3go]

I will definitely check it, I checked the plug, cleaned and adjusted the gap before I replaced the pump and injector.

[Airboss/oc]

is the emissions system removed ? does it have a Vortex ?

[ch3go]

Nope, it's 100% factory with the exception of the aftermarket fuel pump I installed.

[Jeff aka Bolt]

36 minutes ago, Jeff aka Bolt said:

Why isn't this a warranty issue and a KTM problem ?  

[ch3go]

I wish it was still under warranty, and from the research I have done, I'm not alone in these type of problems. I believe it should be a KTM problem, but perhaps those of us with these problems are a small percentage and aren't worth the money for KTM to back their product...or we got lemons?

[Spud786]

1 hour ago, Jeff aka Bolt said:

Why isn't this a warranty issue and a KTM problem ?  

I guess if he just bought the used bike from a ktm dealer(or any dealer), that's a good question. However KTM's original warranty states, it applies to original owner only and not transferable, and a 2017 should be out of warranty anyway.

[Jeff aka Bolt]

Did he say he bought it used...  I missed that if he did.  3.5 hours doesn't sound like a bike more than a year old ???

Bike has a one year (edit: 6 month ?) warranty...  Fed Emissions requires longer on emissions system which would include fuel system. I think it's 5 years. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Jeff aka Bolt

[Spud786]

U.S. Ktm does offer bikes with a 12 month warranty, but in the case of the 500, classified as an offroad bike, its 6 months, and covers engine and frame.  However those bikes with 12 month warranties are transferable to another owner. The federal emission thing , I don't think covers the 500 for 5 years, atleast I haven't found any wording in that regard.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Spud786

[GOTWHEELS]

I know you replaced the pump, Was the pressure check after install?

Your at the point of checking everything. Pressure, connections, TPS voltage.

[ch3go]

I bought the bike used from someone who, from what I can tell, only rode it a handful of times.  The bike is practically brand new.  There are some minor scrapes on one side that look like he may have laid it down once, but everything else is in good shape.  

I didn't test the fuel pressure post pump installation.  I don't believe I have the tools needed to check that.  As for the TPS, is there a way I can test that with just a multimeter, or do I need one of those harnesses that go between to test it?

My plan today is to investigate the spark plug, plug boot, and all the electrical connections...Outside of all that I'm not sure what else I can do.  My current hunch is that it could be something ECU/TPS related.  The throttle idle screw (the red one on top) is turned completely to the right and it doesn't seem to have much of an effect when adjusted.  Perhaps the TPS voltage is too low?

 

[ch3go]

https://www.ktmforums.com/forums/offroad-4-strokes/9961-500-450exc-fuel-injected-tps-adjustment-richen-mixture-eliminate-flame-out.html

https://www.tpstool.com/

Just stumbled across this thread. Im gonna pick up this tool and give this a try and see what happens.

Edited July 15, 2018 by ch3go

[Spud786]

16 hours ago, ch3go said:

I will definitely check it, I checked the plug, cleaned and adjusted the gap before I replaced the pump and injector.

what did the plug look like?  should be pure white with your configuration, those tiny plugs are also very sensitive to cracking. BTw, gapping those plugs, just rips off the platinum coating off the ground electrode(killing its life) , by a new one if the gap is out of spec.

[ch3go]

Good to know, I will post a pic when I pull it.  I have a replacement I can slap in there.

[Jeff aka Bolt]

6 hours ago, Spud786 said:

U.S. Ktm does offer bikes with a 12 month warranty, but in the case of the 500, classified as an offroad bike, its 6 months, and covers engine and frame.  However those bikes with 12 month warranties are transferable to another owner. The federal emission thing , I don't think covers the 500 for 5 years, atleast I haven't found any wording in that regard.

The Offroad designation is KTM's thing and has nothing to do with the Federally required emmissions warranty. 

If a vehicle is sold for street use in the USA it had to comply with Federal Emissions Standards to be approved for sale.  Part of those requirements are that the emmissions related components must be warranteed for some period of time...  5 years on autos/trucks.  This has nothing to do with the KTM warranty.  As best I remember, it follows the vehicle not the owner.  (I was a smog tech in my youth).

This Federally mandated warranty is not advertised by vehicle manufacturers generally but does exist.  Dealerships will sell you parts and services often unless you bring it up.  

I think this guy is on his own now that he has messed with the bike and changed out parts for after market. But people need to know they have recourse before assuming the cost of crappy fuel components on these very expensive bikes.  The only way KTM steps up and makes better FI components is when they start feeling the financial pain of paying for failing fuel pumps, sensors, etc.  imho

Making them street legal comes with certain obligations that cost KTM money.  It is why I believe Honda and others never made their 450s street legal till now that KTM has eaten their lunch in the Dual Sport market for a decade.

The moment KTM applied for street legal status...  In the eyes of the EPA that is a street legal vehicle. Whether it looks like a dirt bike or cruiser or crotch rocket is not relevant. 

I could be talking out my arse but I don't think so. I'll get clarification tomorrow morning what the emmissions warranty is on these bikes... as it's Sunday now. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Jeff aka Bolt

[Spud786]

1 hour ago, Jeff aka Bolt said:

 

 I'll get clarification tomorrow morning what the emmissions warranty is on these bikes... as it's Sunday now. 

Yeah, post back.  I know the 690 and the 1290 classified and are warrantied differently than the 500's(they may be more like autos), but I do understand Auto emissions are generally on a 5 year set up, that normally covers the cat, egr valve, not sure what else.

[Jeff aka Bolt]

26 minutes ago, Spud786 said:

that normally covers the cat, egr valve, not sure what else.

Pretty much everything that can effect emissions. ?

EPA doesn't care what the intended use of the bike is.  If it's a motorcycle and will be riding the highways of USA it has a singular classification.  There could be some differentiation for motor size maybe...  but I've never heard of it.  Suspension travel and type of tires has nothing to do with emissions classifications. 

KTM's warranty classification of different bikes is theirs to control because it's voluntary and driven by marketing to appeal to consumer confidence.  Emissions on the other hand is LAW enforced by the EPA.

I'll do my best to noodle it down and report back. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Jeff aka Bolt

[Pipester]

7 hours ago, ch3go said:

I bought the bike used from someone who, from what I can tell, only rode it a handful of times.  The bike is practically brand new.  There are some minor scrapes on one side that look like he may have laid it down once, but everything else is in good shape.  

I didn't test the fuel pressure post pump installation.  I don't believe I have the tools needed to check that.  As for the TPS, is there a way I can test that with just a multimeter, or do I need one of those harnesses that go between to test it?

My plan today is to investigate the spark plug, plug boot, and all the electrical connections...Outside of all that I'm not sure what else I can do.  My current hunch is that it could be something ECU/TPS related.  The throttle idle screw (the red one on top) is turned completely to the right and it doesn't seem to have much of an effect when adjusted.  Perhaps the TPS voltage is too low?

 

Turn the yellow ‘cold start’ screw all the way out (counterclockwise). The red idle screw when you turn it down FYI actually push’s on the throttle cam and opens the butterfly. 

If you buy a cheap fuel pressure gauge and some hose you can rig up a testing device to see if you are getting a healthy 52 psi. 

Spark plugs are relatively cheap. I have heard on one case the porcelain had a hairline crack on the plug and it was arcking (spelling?) might want to try a plug first as it’s the easiest diagnosis. 

The stock ecu is super super lean. I mean like 20:1 lean. You do need a harness to check the tps voltage. 

Double check your electrical grounds. Put a multi meter on the battery to see if you are getting a healthy amount of volts. 

What did the in tank fuel filter look like? Was that replaced with the pump? 

If you end up in dire straights and need a TPS tool, pm me. I’ll send you mine so you can borrow it if you like. I’m in Canada so it might take a bit but I’d be willing. 

Hope something here was helpful.