Gravel or Bumpy Turn Entry Offroad

[Keebler750]

I'm new to 'dirt' but have extensive roadrace experience, etc. I'm having a hard time getting into a corner on the front tire and instead set speed early and ride the back tire through. Problem is, I'm riding a heavy 701 Enduro and the torque breaks traction real easy and I end up losing drive. A higher entry to apex speed would seem to make sense, but I don't trust it. It's not just a psychological barrier (though I know I have had to fight through them). I lose and save the front all the time but it's just a waste of speed as I pause to get it back under me.

I'm noticing the front suspension is pretty stictiony and doesn't let me know what the front contact patch is doing. (And I've done a lot to the suspension to try to tame it...) Interestingly, the weight bias on this 330lb beast is 45f/55r. Can that be part of the issue?

What kinds of things can I do or think about to get the corner entry more efficient? I'm riding fairly technical mountain trails and deep gravel or gravel on hardpack.

I'd agree I need more experience to wrap my head around loose terrain (compared to hot tires on pavement) but I'm riding 80km a day on trails and working my ass off here trying to learn.

I need some advice!

Edited July 15, 2018 by Keebler750

[Hans Schmid]

What kinda tires you have on? 

[bucket list]

1 hour ago, Keebler750 said:

I'm new to 'dirt' but have extensive roadrace experience, etc. I'm having a hard time getting into a corner on the front tire and instead set speed early and ride the back tire through. Problem is, I'm riding a heavy 701 Enduro and the torque breaks traction real easy and I end up losing drive. A higher entry to apex speed would seem to make sense, but I don't trust it. It's not just a psychological barrier (though I know I have had to fight through them). I lose and save the front all the time but it's just a waste of speed as I pause to get it back under me.

I'm noticing the front suspension is pretty stictiony and doesn't let me know what the front contact patch is doing. (And I've done a lot to the suspension to try to tame it...) Interestingly, the weight bias on this 330lb beast is 45f/55r. Can that be part of the issue?

What kinds of things can I do or think about to get the corner entry more efficient? I'm riding fairly technical mountain trails and deep gravel or gravel on hardpack.

I'd agree I need more experience to wrap my head around loose terrain (compared to hot tires on pavement) but I'm riding 80km a day on trails and working my ass off here trying to learn.

I need some advice!

Sort of glad your having the same problem as me on my adventure DRZ. I have extensive pro MX and road racing experiance and after trying several different tires (knobby-50/50) and playing with different suspension and tire pressures, my conclusion is that it just is the nature of the breast. Gravely forest roads with lose on hard pack, just doesn't want you to STEER a bike through it with the front wheel. I've gone to the technique of charging straight to the inside of the corner, brake hard straight up and down, a tight slower pivot, then on the gas hard to swing the back around with a little power slide on the way out. Of course you have to be careful of traffic coming the other way, but way less sketchy than trying to rail around the outside of those type of corners.

[Keebler750]

5 hours ago, Hans Schmid said:

What kinda tires you have on? 

Had Dunlop D606s but now have Mitas C-17 front at 9 psi and Kenda Parker DT 120/100-18 at 6 psi on TuBliss.

[baconispower]

my honest take is that you might be overthinking it, especially if you're new to dirt. aggression aside, your roadracing experience means next to nothing in the dirt, outside of knowing where the controls are and how to use them.  on a big bike like that the tires won't even matter, it's a heavy dual-sport and not designed to do what lighter race bikes do. my advice is to forget the analysis, and just ride and have fun.  if you want to get serious about going fast off-road without it being sketchy, get a bike thats designed for it.  you're essentially riding a fully dressed and loaded up st1300 around a roadrace course, sure you'll see guys doing it and having fun, but i assure you its gets sketchy if you even start to push it; and you'll never go even remotely as fast as you could on a bike built for it.  ?  if you were to step down to a 500exc or fe501 i'd bet my life your enjoyment level would go through the roof.

Edited July 16, 2018 by DRS

[Keebler750]

I can definitely see that the weight is a factor, as is the front "suspension." ?

I'm really thinkng about a smaller FE or a 300 two stroke...I'm just stubborn about trying to learn on this thing!

[CBus660R]

I haven't ridden one of the 690/701 bikes from Austria, but I'm thinking what you need to do is channel your inner flat tracker.  Lots of weight on the outside peg pushing the bike down, nuts up on the gas tank, and smooth on the throttle and flat track your way around the turns you're describing.

[Keebler750]

That does work when it's smooth and not too loose. What about bumpy, or....deep gravel?

[CBus660R]

12 hours ago, Keebler750 said:

That does work when it's smooth and not too loose. What about bumpy, or....deep gravel?

With deep gravel it should be similar.  If it's bumpy, then you just have to slow down a bit, square it up and lay down the power once the bike is more vertical and pointed where you want to go.  

[Keebler750]

So, is the front tire very useful at all? I feel I'm already riding the back the way you describe.

[adam728]

Deep gravel gets treated more like deep sand. Weight back. Throttle is your friend. Always easier said than done.

[Windblown]

I'm not new to dirt but don't have a lifetime on it. I'm basically just a trail rider.  I do have have a lot of miles on big adventure bikes off pavement (1190R & 800XC), as well as some time on dirt bikes (currently a 250 XC-F) and also a pretty large chunk of time on a bike very similar to yours, though a 690 Enduro in my case. Also have 40 or so trackdays on road courses several years ago before shifting my emphasis to dirt. In other words, I'm no expert and not even particularly skilled, but I've put in the time in both camps.

As others have said, it's tough to steer with the front in gravel or gravel over hard pack. You can't bull the front around with hard countersteering like you can in a high traction environment especially when the physics of a heavy bike come into play that wants to continue in the direction it was going rather than turning. The 690 is sort of the equivalent of a liter bike compared to a 600 - unless highly skilled you point and shoot with it more than actually carve with it.

Peg weighting is sometimes poo-poo'd as a placebo but it does seem to help. This is very noticeable on the big adventure bikes when on surfaces that afford little front end bite. Speaking of front end bite, I don't think it's possible to get too much of it on a heavy bike. Unless you are always steering with the rear you have to have an aggressive tire to turn a heavy bikes head and the 690 is pretty heavy and doesn't have an excess amount of trail nor the most ground hugging compliant front suspension out of the box.  

Everyone has different techniques that work for them and not all gravel surfaces are created equal. Experiment. Safely! ?

Edited July 24, 2018 by Windblown

[Keebler750]

Thanks. I just revalved my forks (my first on a cartridge type, after 25 years off...! Yay!) and I can now feel the front, even on gravel, so I'll have to re-evaluate what I've been doing. Seems I can carry more speed into and through the corner, so....here's hoping!!! I'll post here again after some test time.

[Keebler750]

Yep. I just did a 100km test loop of rocky, potholed logging roads complete with nice deep winnrowed gravel. I can feel the front end SO much more and it's composed enough I trust working the front end harder even in potholed corners. I'll have to do some single track stuff now, but looks like trusting it is kind of important to how hard you push into the turn...! (duh)

[Doug Fugly]

Compared to a true dirt bike, the 690 and 701 are very rear heavy. The front just isn't going to stick like a regular dirtbike. Stand up, pivot at the waist to get head over bars at entrance, sit way forward while in the turn.

[Keebler750]

Yeah, I'm noticing that rear weight for sure. I really find myself setting the speed early and powering through. It feels slow....

[Doug Fugly]

Yeah, I'm noticing that rear weight for sure. I really find myself setting the speed early and powering through. It feels slow....

I guess you either sit on the triple clamp, or steer with the rear by brake sliding in and flat tracking out. Hot Rod of a motor though. [emoji106]

[Keebler750]

I just bought an FE501. Um, yeah.....NOW I can directly see the problem! The 501 turns and sticks better, with excellent mid-turn balance ON THE TKC80s!!! ?

I'll weigh the front and rear on the new one (701 was 45f/55r), but I'm betting it was the weight bias issue that was killing me. At least I feel that I understood enough about riding to question the front, anyway... ?