Fuel Filter issue?

[reltor]

Anyone have a starting point for this issue. Bike is a 2017 690 Enduro - 845 miles - Bought this spring It has run great up until yesterday on the way home from work. I let it warm up took off off up the road 5000 rpm ish and everything was normal for about 1/2" mile and it suddenly started missing and cutting pretty bad. I made it home but it was spitting and sputtering the whole way and I could tell it would not idle. It seems like it is not getting fuel or if it is very intermittently.

FI light is not coming on and the fuel pump primes and I can hear the throttle servo.

Once home I shut if off let it cool down, drained the fuel from the fuel pump access in the tank and re-filled. No change. I have removed and checked the plugs and the top one looked good, the bottom one was slightly black and a little wet, which may be expected with it not running right. 

I checked and blew through the vent line from the charcoal canister to the cap and it is open.   

I have the inline filter coming and figured that would be an easy thing to try

Before the first fill up (premium pump gas) I put a CJ Designs cap on it and a twin-air filter sock in the tank, so there shouldn't be any large particles making their way through unless they were already in there.

[NoFiddyPilot]

Well, you certainly checked a lot of the things I would have. And, with no FI light on, it's probably something simple.

Just to be clear, the fuel you drained was NOT from the same can you filled it with after draining. I wondered if you might have had poor fuel?  If you think that MIGHT be the case, if I'm not mistaken, you can set the MAP switch under the seat to crappy fuel, to see if the ECU adjusts. Not saying that it's bad fuel, just a thought. I'm thinking not b/c of it sputtering. That sounds more like lack of fuel vs. just poor fuel. Sounds like you're on the right track checking the inline filter. I'd see how that goes.

[reltor]

8 minutes ago, Bryan Bosch said:

Well, you certainly checked a lot of the things I would have. And, with no FI light on, it's probably something simple.

Just to be clear, the fuel you drained was NOT from the same can you filled it with after draining. I wondered if you might have had poor fuel?  If you think that MIGHT be the case, if I'm not mistaken, you can set the MAP switch under the seat to crappy fuel, to see if the ECU adjusts. Not saying that it's bad fuel, just a thought. I'm thinking not b/c of it sputtering. That sounds more like lack of fuel vs. just poor fuel. Sounds like you're on the right track checking the inline filter. I'd see how that goes.

Yes,  I used different fuel, and only a little bit.  Nothing I have done has changed the way it runs at all.  I did try the map switch.   It will start and idle low and poorly for 5-15 seconds and if you get on the gas it runs with a lot of hesitation.  

I though of taking that inline filter out and trying it, but I don't really want to do that for fear of plugging the injector.  

[coarsegoldkid]

I would go back to the fuel filler and whatever else you changed and replaced before the poor running.  Make sure the tank is vented properly.  I once had a bike that sputtered at speed but not a idle.  It turned out that the fuel vent hose from the cap was in a position that air passing by it actually caused a vacuum.  I re-positioned it while it sputtered, the sputter stopped and all was well.  The 690 OEM vent can also be pinched by the seat in some cases so look there also. Make sure all the fuel lines are not bent in some manner to impede the flow.  The little fuel screen in the quick disconnect to the throttle body is also suspect so just throw it away.  I don't know if your model uses stick coils or not but make sure the spark plug caps are fully connected and no open connections.

[EmpireofDerp]

I would go back to the fuel filler and whatever else you changed and replaced before the poor running.  Make sure the tank is vented properly.  I once had a bike that sputtered at speed but not a idle.  It turned out that the fuel vent hose from the cap was in a position that air passing by it actually caused a vacuum.  I re-positioned it while it sputtered, the sputter stopped and all was well.  The 690 OEM vent can also be pinched by the seat in some cases so look there also. Make sure all the fuel lines are not bent in some manner to impede the flow.  The little fuel screen in the quick disconnect to the throttle body is also suspect so just throw it away.  I don't know if your model uses stick coils or not but make sure the spark plug caps are fully connected and no open connections.

First ive seen anyone say to toss the fuel screen. I was wondering if the OP changed it at the 600 mile service as suggested in the manual. I did not.

[coarsegoldkid]

First ive seen anyone say to toss the fuel screen. I was wondering if the OP changed it at the 600 mile service as suggested in the manual. I did not.

Probably not a good idea to toss it but at least inspect it. I've read many times owners of the FI bikes doing just that since there's a filter in the tank. They may have another inline filter added. Yeah, mine is still there from day 1.

[reltor]

13 minutes ago, coarsegoldkid said:

1 hour ago, HeavyRotation said:

First ive seen anyone say to toss the fuel screen. I was wondering if the OP changed it at the 600 mile service as suggested in the manual. I did not.

Probably not a good idea to toss it but at least inspect it. I've read many times owners of the FI bikes doing just that since there's a filter in the tank. They may have another inline filter added. Yeah, mine is still there from day 1.

From my understanding the one that the manual says to change at 600mi  is in-line beside the rear left of the airbox.   There is also (as I understand) a screen in the tank ahead of the fuel pump and a cartridge filter after the fuel pump that has a longer service interval.  

 

I think this in-line one used to be 10micron and just in the front of the injector housing.  Now supposedly they are 20 micron and inline at least on the newer 690's

I am very tempted to remove it an try it, but am afraid of passing something on to the injector.  

If I get a chance, I'll post a video of start up and how it is running.  

 

 

[reltor]

Below is a link to the bike running.  Note in the beginning the idle is faltering and then I am revving and it is not responding, then it revs pretty normally a couple times, then when I go back to idle it dies. 

I took it out in a little loop and it ran normal for an instant then falls flat and has short bursts of running (kind of OK)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rLCwQjtC6hR2tk9K7uV0YfiR6PZjLKEq

Let me know if the link works

Edited August 9, 2018 by reltor

[Flagstaff]

4 hours ago, reltor said:

Below is a link to the bike running.  Note in the beginning the idle is faltering and then I am revving and it is not responding, then it revs pretty normally a couple times, then when I go back to idle it dies. 

I took it out in a little loop and it ran normal for an instant then falls flat and has short bursts of running (kind of OK)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rLCwQjtC6hR2tk9K7uV0YfiR6PZjLKEq

Let me know if the link works

Link works but I can't help.

[coarsegoldkid]

Have you checked out the tank venting yet? And as far as the small injector screen is concerned I believe you can safely remove it without worrying about a bit of dirt getting through in the short ride time it takes for it to run crappy. I also don't believe it's the problem.

[reltor]

13 hours ago, coarsegoldkid said:

Have you checked out the tank venting yet? And as far as the small injector screen is concerned I believe you can safely remove it without worrying about a bit of dirt getting through in the short ride time it takes for it to run crappy. I also don't believe it's the problem.

I did check the tank venting, it is open, I could easily blow air through it to the tank.  I tried with the fuel cap open/closed, and disconnected the outlet from the charcoal canister to purge valve tried that, no change,  reinstalled normally...no change

Removed the airbox and changed the inline fuel filter, and there was a tiny bit of stuff in it. 

removed injector and watched spray pattern on cardboard when keying the ign. looked even and wasn't spitting.  Looked for rubbed wires..nothing bad. Put back together, no change.

Took the battery out, put it on tender..charged, pulled battery tray, no rubbed wires to speak of, put it all back together, no change

I also tried all of the map settings, 0 may have been slightly better, but still bad. 

I am now thinking about that outer spark plug being a little black and wet while the other inner one was nuetral gray.  Whatever happened was instant, it went from running great to this.  I don't know if a spark issue would throw a FI code, but there hasn't been one thrown yet.

  

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by reltor

[EmpireofDerp]

Bump? Any progress?

[reltor]

I took the bike back to the dealer to sort out this problem.  Theyfound that the fuel would reach 50psi and once running would drop off causing the issues. 

Under warranty the shop replaced the pump, fuel regulator, and fuel filters. The bike is a 17 and they told me that KTM has updated the fuel pump/regulator twice since that bike was built. The KTM technicians told the dealer that the newest pump was back ordered and may not be available for months. The dealer urged me to call KTM -USA to see what could be done. I left a message and that evening a very nice woman called me back and I explained the situation. The next day she called again and said that the parts were en-route to the dealer. Other than taking a total of 8 weeks it is back on the road. The fuel pump does sound different when you turn the key one, I am wondering if there was something wrong with the original from the start. It will be interesting to see if this latest pump lasts. I can post the part #s of this latest pump and regulator later.

Edited October 15, 2018 by reltor

[reltor]

While waiting for the repairs out of curiosity, I took the old inline fuel filter to work and tapped some dirt out of it and here is what it looked like under the microscope.  Looks like plastic or carbon particles.  Keep in mind these were very very small, almost invisible to the naked eye.  If they came from the pump itself, they also had to make it through the large fuel filter.  

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gMP4ySgVfIlA93PCDtj_RYksYdNG5eEG

Edited October 15, 2018 by reltor

[XCLR8TN]

In for updated fueling part #'s. Just in case.

[Shaun Luetich]

A mate told me the 690 fuel pumps are notoriously bad for rubbing against the inside of the tank and causing little flecks of plastic to make its way into the fuel filters and possibly injectors. Apparently this has been going on for a fair few years with the 690 without much attention from KTM. There’s a good chance this could be what’s happening? I’m a bit sketchy on the details as he mentioned it in passing....anybody else heard of this happening?

[Vince Clemens]

Yes, just happened to me on the NMBDR.

A ktm dealer spent 6 hours on it with all their fancy machines, finally I told them to pull the fuel filter obviously they didn’t want to because is messy! 

Filter was black and barley had any flow when pouring cleaner threw it.

Runs perfectly now! Question is, where did this black stuff come from! 

[Kwota]

On 8/8/2018 at 12:28 PM, reltor said:

From my understanding the one that the manual says to change at 600mi  is in-line beside the rear left of the airbox.   There is also (as I understand) a screen in the tank ahead of the fuel pump and a cartridge filter after the fuel pump that has a longer service interval.  

 

I think this in-line one used to be 10micron and just in the front of the injector housing.  Now supposedly they are 20 micron and inline at least on the newer 690's

I am very tempted to remove it an try it, but am afraid of passing something on to the injector.  

If I get a chance, I'll post a video of start up and how it is running.  

 

 

Theres a little one right before the injector, you get at it easily by taking the airbox off. You might be able to get at it with the airbox in place. Just wipe down the area first to eliminate any nearby dirt and then open it up and pop that guy out. The reality is that the big one in your tank will get clogged long before the little in-line one does, just watch kinking the fuel lines when taking it out of the tank. The service interval that you speak of is thrown out the window when you factor in old/bad/dirty gas, grit and dust that gets sucked into the tank. These bikes need clean filters  and fuel injectors to run well. Depending on how its running and filter condition, you may want to pull out your injector and take it to a race shop to get it professionally cleaned.

[Kwota]

5 hours ago, Vince Clemens said:

Yes, just happened to me on the NMBDR.

A ktm dealer spent 6 hours on it with all their fancy machines, finally I told them to pull the fuel filter obviously they didn’t want to because is messy! 

Filter was black and barley had any flow when pouring cleaner threw it.

Runs perfectly now! Question is, where did this black stuff come from! 

The grey black sludge comes from something in the tank that's breaking down. I've read speculation that its something in the pump or in the tank lining that breaks down as its constantly sitting in the gasoline. This is a known 690 thing that has spanned all generations. You just have to stay on top of swapping filters or your pump or injectors will eventually fail, but CA Cycleworks makes a great kit and replacement that worked great on my old 2010. I had to swap filters, put in a new pump and a new injector in that bike. Not sure how long my 2019's filters will last, but I"m expecting the sludge...

 

The same little single-use high-pressure hose connector clamps that KTM uses, that attach the fuel pump to its lines, can be purchased at McMaster-Carr.  

Edited July 20, 2019 by Kwota

[NORTY]

One thing I discovered, when being in the bulk fuel/lubricants business for 40 years, is that no matter how many filters you have, you're going to get crud in every one of them, eventually. Even triple line filters will load up with stuff, that was passed by filters upstream. Crazy? Yup. But true.