Yz450f aluminum dust in oil

[alh583]

I have researched this topic for the past week and cannot make a conclusion on my current situation. I have a 2012 yz450f I just did a top end and new exhaust valves in (tip of one wore off making one loose). When changing its oil the first time after break in there was what I feel was a lot of metallic dust in the oil (the worst pic of the 2). It seems to be aluminium because from a magnet the drips still have the dust and don't seem to get caught on the magnet. It's not milky like coolant and they aren't flakes like other describe. They are dust like particles of metal. Adding to this I just bought a 2016 yz450f with about 25hrs on it and after its second oil change I noticed a fair bit of this dust in it as well (second photo). Both bikes have rotella t4 in them and PC racing stainless filters. Does this seem to be normal? Is its clutch material or cause for more concern? I'm a local B rider and use the clutch moderately I feel but not excessive by any means (I did grow up on 2 strokes). Any help would be appreciated. I can't seem to find real advice on metallic dust like particles..... only shavings. I guess it really brought my attention to it more checking the oil after the topend in the 2012 as to weather it's normal. Come on grayracer or someone!!!

[alh583]

The 2012 has about 160hrs btw and it's the 3rd topend, original clutch and everything else. I'm most concerned that the 2016 has some too and wonder if the rotella t4 is any contribute or what along with if this is cause for concern. I have used rotella for 8yrs and just switched to the t4 on the new topend of the 2012. I have no real loyalty to it but was just advised to use it many yrs ago and never had a reason to change

[mch]

T4 oil isn't your problem.  Those pictures don't seem to to really tell me what's going on.  If you were to tell me you had a coolant leak, I would be saying yeah because the pictures look like it's a milky color.  With the aluminum, perhaps the timing chain is dragging on the cylinder or head?  You get those dowel pins in?

[alh583]

Thanks for the quick reply and the advice on the t4. I too would think it was a coolant leak upon first glance as it does seem milky I must admit. However when swishing it around it's like tiny aluminum dust particles as opposed to a homogeneous milky consistency. I called my old mechanic where I use to live and he suggested the timing chain rubbing something or the slider being wore out. I tore back into it and could find any symptoms of that. I did get the dowel pins in and followed the rotational torque procedure and everything as per the manual. I used cometic gaskets throughout. I feel I'm a fair mechanic as I truly do have OCPD and check everything multiple times. Like I said I'm most concerned about the 2016 since it has some particles too though not half as bad. I bought it as a deal when rebuilding the 2012 so now that the 2012 is done it's for sale. I still don't want there to be a problem for the next person but the 2016 having some is my priority. I just can't determine if its clutch particles or a bigger problem in both or if like I mentioned the t4 was having an effect. I have 5 bike total right now and they all used t4 so if that's a problem I definitely want to get it addressed (11 yz250f, 15 wr250r, 09wr450f dual sport)

[alh583]

COULDN'T find symptoms of the timing chain being that***

[jonboyf]

I would try a stock filter or two

[wdietz]

You say it has a fresh top end, was it assembled with a Moly base cam lube? That will give you the metallic looking oil. I’d run it some and change the oil a time or two. The moly is good for the cam and trans gears too.

[alh583]

The stock filter makes sense. I used a paper filter for the first change in the 16 and it was clean. Only 1 ride about 1.5hrs. Then the second oil change it had a stainless filter and went 2 rides about 3hrs and it had some shimmer to it. I always thought stainless filters were the way to go because a paper one could potentially pass debris larger than 30ųm where a stainless one couldn't.

As for the cam lube, I simply drenched it in t4 oil during assembly. I didnt use anything but that oil during the assembly. I did use a lot of grey/silver permatex antiseize one nearly every bolt. I'm just really worried that the t4 is having a bad effect on the bikes or now I'm questioning a stainless filter.

[hondaxr650rrrr]

Loose the stainless filter. Check your metal clutch plates if they are made of Aluminum.

[alh583]

so thus far it seems everyone is suggesting its the stainless filter not filtering down to the size of the dust. Therefore, there isn't an oil issue running Rotella? I really feel like my oil has always been kind of milky in every bike (always used a stainless filter and not milky in the coolant sense). I just paid more attention to it after the rebuild of the 2012 and since it seemed very extreme, but now it has me so paranoid about the 2016 I just got. 

[etuke]

I have used stainless filters in my KX450 and my older yz450 and never saw anything like that.

[sbest]

5 hours ago, alh583 said:

so thus far it seems everyone is suggesting its the stainless filter not filtering down to the size of the dust. Therefore, there isn't an oil issue running Rotella? I really feel like my oil has always been kind of milky in every bike (always used a stainless filter and not milky in the coolant sense). I just paid more attention to it after the rebuild of the 2012 and since it seemed very extreme, but now it has me so paranoid about the 2016 I just got. 

OEM paper filter is far superior to any screen filter. Industry uses a screen on the intake to keep the big chunks out of the pump and a fine paper filter to keep the fine stuff out of the bearings. Rotella is good oil, but is it what the manufacturer calls for? Awfully expensive gamble?

[mch]

Rotella Triple was JASO MA rated, but the T4 doesn't list that rating.  Unknown if they just didn't bother to get the rating or they changed something that wouldn't allow it to meet that specification.  Either way, I doubt anything about that oil formulation would make it turn that color or cause excessive wear to metal components.  I know people are using the T4, and I haven't seen anyone complaining about issues.  Oil with the JASO MA rating ensures the oil doesn't have various friction modifiers that embed into the fiber clutch material, but it will still lube the components.

I'd just do an oil change, and try a paper filter.  Put an hour or two on it, and see what the the oil and filter (cut it open) looks like.  If you get more of that color, I'd say it's coolant getting into the motor.  If it really is a ton of aluminum, my guess would be the cam chain hitting something.

[alh583]

Thanks for the input everyone..... etuke I'm in the same boat but I do have some debris in my 2016 and wonder if I just never paid enough attention until I drained that awful looking oil out of the 2012. Such that the stainless filter does allow a lot of dust particles sized debris through. I need a refresher on what's normal I guess. I know the pic of the oil out of the 2012 isnt.

Sbest that's kind of what I'm getting at that maybe the stainless filter isnt that great. As for the rotella I have ran it for 8yrs or so but recently switched to the t4

Mch the back of the t4 bottle has JASO MA/MA2 on the back of it. I assumed this was wet clutch certified. Thanks for the suggestion. I just can't seem to recall what normal debris is. It freaked me out that after this 2012 yz450f incident the 2016 has the same looking debris in it although only approximately 20% of that of the 2012 (the worst pic is the 2012 and not so bad is 2016) I'm most worried that the oil is causing problems or the filter and its gonna cause havoc on the new 2016 with 26hrs on it.

[alh583]

I hate when there's not a conclusion to a post. After thinking about it all week I have come to the conclusion that the silver sheen was from the silver permatex antiseize I put on the head bolts and pretty much ever other bolt. I got to looking at it and noticed that the antiseize has the same metallic look to it so I put just a drop of it in about 10oz of used oil and sure enough the solution looked just like what i drained out of the 2012. I know there had to be some on the 2 head bolts inside the head. Along with the dab I put on the cam covers and valve cover (I remember being a bit antiseize happy on this build for some reason). This is the best conclusion I can come up with and seems very plausible. It still has me questioning how much "dust" really is normal though. I never did pay attention until this happened so now I really do notice how much dust causing a silver sheen is in all my bikes. Does everyone see at least a faint bit of metallic looking dust and a silver sheen?

 

[wdietz]

The Anti Sieze is most likely the cause of your metallic looking oil. It is after all powdered aluminum suspended in a heavy oil. A couple of oil changes should clear it out. Anti sieze is made to be used sparingly, no need to be slopped on unless it is used on assemblies that are exposed to corrosive liquids/salt etc. 

[Wiz636]

Rotella is a good oil when fresh but it isn't designed for and doesn't hold up very long in a gearbox.  Amsoil MCF carries the API GL-1 rating (Gear Lube) in addition to the JASO rating, and I believe the Mobil 1 Racing 4T does as well. Those two oils are designed specifically to work with wet clutches AND gearboxes.

All that said, I don't think your issue is caused by the oil that you use.

[MotoTribology]

18 hours ago, Wiz636 said:

Rotella is a good oil when fresh but it isn't designed for and doesn't hold up very long in a gearbox.  Amsoil MCF carries the API GL-1 rating (Gear Lube) in addition to the JASO rating, and I believe the Mobil 1 Racing 4T does as well. Those two oils are designed specifically to work with wet clutches AND gearboxes.

All that said, I don't think your issue is caused by the oil that you use.

Just FYI, baby oil would qualify as an API GL-1 gear oil. GL-1 is any refined petroleum oil, with or without additives. They cannot contain friction modifiers or extreme pressure additives.

[Wiz636]

1 hour ago, MotoTribology said:

Just FYI, baby oil would qualify as an API GL-1 gear oil. GL-1 is any refined petroleum oil, with or without additives. They cannot contain friction modifiers or extreme pressure additives.

That's good to know.

[alh583]

Thanks for the input everyone. Like I put above I've come to the conclusion that the antiseize is the culprit but i'm glad to learn more about oil ?…….. I think i'm going to continue to run Rotella. Ive heard the issues about it retaining viscosity but I change it every 3hrs so I think i'll be ok. The only question I had in this topic that wasn't really addressed is how much debris do you normally see in your oil changes? I know the main pic in the beginning is abnormal but I do get a bit of metallic looking dust in about every oil change. I mean its hardly noticeable unless you really look for it but then when you see it its substantial. Im wondering if this is normal in general or normal with a stainless filter that can't filter down that small or something. 

thanks