Mountain Bike Only Trails

[341]

How does the mountain bike community get to make new mountain bike only trails?  Around Wenatchee, they are putting in trails at Squilchuck State Park, up #2 Canyon, at Echo Ridge in Chelan, and in Leavenworth too.  These are US Forest service and State Park lands. I assume that they have lots of money through the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance and other groups, but how do they get to be the only ones that have permission to add single user group trails? No motorcycles, no horses and I assume no hikers either.  What did they do to get permission, and how can we take advantage of their experience so that we can get new trails too? 

Troy341

[JRM]

im also irate, the mt bike people built the sandy ridge trails across the street from my house and after 2010 motorized access is locked out- don't let that fool you though, my xr250r with a stock muffler has roamed those trails! Really upsetting to see a huge gate placed on public property with only mt bike access 

[HHey]

From my perspective, they are way better at organizing, funding, and lobbying. Dirtbike community is on the defense. We would be more effective on the offense. Organize ourselves in a way that is inclusive, free to members, with the goal of expanding free riding areas that don’t require membership.

[motovita]

10 hours ago, 341 said:

How does the mountain bike community get to make new mountain bike only trails?  Around Wenatchee, they are putting in trails at Squilchuck State Park, up #2 Canyon, at Echo Ridge in Chelan, and in Leavenworth too.  These are US Forest service and State Park lands. I assume that they have lots of money through the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance and other groups, but how do they get to be the only ones that have permission to add single user group trails? No motorcycles, no horses and I assume no hikers either.  What did they do to get permission, and how can we take advantage of their experience so that we can get new trails too? 

Troy341

 Can you give specific examples of single use trails on USFS land? I've never heard of such a thing. Nothing WA state does would surprise me though.

[Slackkinhard]

just get yourself one of these new e-bikes and go shreddin....everything is soon going to be motorized cuz it's easy to hide the motors.

[Cycle_Path]

8 minutes ago, Slackkinhard said:

just get yourself one of these new e-bikes and go shreddin....everything is soon going to be motorized cuz it's easy to hide the motors.

Living in North Bend I am been seriously tempted. They have just opened a crapload of new stuff nearby but its all major climbing involved. I have heard the spandex heads go ape chit when our on trails with an ebike. Makes me want to do it all that much more.

[HHey]

just get yourself one of these new e-bikes and go shreddin....everything is soon going to be motorized cuz it's easy to hide the motors.

It’ll be interesting to see how e-bikes and electric dirtbikes change trail access issues.

[Slackkinhard]

7 minutes ago, HHey said:

 

It’ll be interesting to see how e-bikes and electric dirtbikes change trail access issues.

all we gotta do is claim handicap access. Although I like to mtb, I have no love for their exclusionary ways. There is nothing more holy about pedaling than twisting a throttle

[ACree]

On 9/22/2018 at 7:58 AM, motovita said:

 Can you give specific examples of single use trails on USFS land? I've never heard of such a thing. Nothing WA state does would surprise me though.

Uh, a couple thousand miles of hiker only trail?

Although why you mention 'WA state' in conjunction with Federal lands doesn't make sense.

Evergreen raised a ton of $ money this year from its members.  There's a reason they're gaining ground with trails.  There is no reason moto groups couldn't have this success were they as organized and active.  

[Wonderspoon]

all we gotta do is claim handicap access. Although I like to mtb, I have no love for their exclusionary ways. There is nothing more holy about pedaling than twisting a throttle

There’s something there, though. I wouldn’t look twice if someone rode a mountain bike, electric or not, down the sidewalk or through the center of a college campus. Now try that on even an Crf50 and it’s completely different. I think the noise is a much bigger issue than many of us who enjoy the sound of an engine realize.

[motovita]

2 hours ago, ACree said:

Uh, a couple thousand miles of hiker only trail?

Although why you mention 'WA state' in conjunction with Federal lands doesn't make sense.

Evergreen raised a ton of $ money this year from its members.  There's a reason they're gaining ground with trails.  There is no reason moto groups couldn't have this success were they as organized and active.  

 Sorry I meant to type, single use MTB trails, since I got no response I assume that there are none. Actually there's relatively few miles of hiker only trail on USFS land, I believe most trails that are open to hikers are also open to pack stock or horses.

 The period between my two sentences separates them, there is no conjunction.

Edited September 24, 2018 by motovita

[ACree]

1 hour ago, motovita said:

 Sorry I meant to type, single use MTB trails, since I got no response I assume that there are none. Actually there's relatively few miles of hiker only trail on USFS land, I believe most trails that are open to hikers are also open to pack stock or horses.

 The period between my two sentences separates them, there is no conjunction.

Gotcha re wa vs usfs. I misinterpreted what you meant. 

I disagree re miles of hiker only trail. The I-90 corridor alone has many trails that are hiker only and no horse use. Not to mention that hikers, on fed and state land, get away with unofficial trail use all over the place, where Moto or mtb doing the same would get shut down quick. 

Mtb only trail, or MTB having the right of way,  in WA is relatively new. East tiger summit was the first where hikers didn’t have right of way as far as I know, aside from Duthie, and Predator the first closed to hikers. The trend there has been that black or double blacks are bike only, and one way use. I am not convinced that single use trails are a good strategy long term as it may mean no shared trails and thus fewer miles for everyone. 

[ACree]

2 hours ago, Wonderspoon said:

 

There’s something there, though. I wouldn’t look twice if someone rode a mountain bike, electric or not, down the sidewalk or through the center of a college campus. Now try that on even an Crf50 and it’s completely different. I think the noise is a much bigger issue than many of us who enjoy the sound of an engine realize.

 

IMO electric bikes are the best hope motos users have of changing the game from defense to gaining ground. But it’s a long game and groups need to be working on it now. Every new mtb trail you hear about has been in the works for years. There is a severe lack of organized trail advocacy in the WA moto world. It’s going to be really interesting to see e motorcycles and e ‘bicycles’ morph into one category. 

[motovita]

7 hours ago, ACree said:

Gotcha re wa vs usfs. I misinterpreted what you meant. 

I disagree re miles of hiker only trail. The I-90 corridor alone has many trails that are hiker only and no horse use. Not to mention that hikers, on fed and state land, get away with unofficial trail use all over the place, where Moto or mtb doing the same would get shut down quick. 

Mtb only trail, or MTB having the right of way,  in WA is relatively new. East tiger summit was the first where hikers didn’t have right of way as far as I know, aside from Duthie, and Predator the first closed to hikers. The trend there has been that black or double blacks are bike only, and one way use. I am not convinced that single use trails are a good strategy long term as it may mean no shared trails and thus fewer miles for everyone. 

 What government agency(s) have MTB only, or MTB right of way trails on their land?

[ACree]

2 hours ago, motovita said:

 What government agency(s) have MTB only, or MTB right of way trails on their land?

In WA that I know of, DNR (Tiger, Raging, Capitol, probably some around Cold Creek, and Darrington under construction), and King County (Duthie). AFAIK Squilchuck (state parks) doesn't have bike only trails but may have some bike right of way trails.  Squilchuck park would likely be closed and locked without mtbers having gotten involved to get more use in there. https://www.evergreenmtb.org/blog/evergreen-central-building-epic-riding-at-squilchuck-state-park  All of the stuff you see MTB getting now has been in the works for years.  Having been involved with Evergreen quite a bit, I can't emphasize that enough.  The lead time on this stuff is huge.  BTW there is 20+ miles that is going to be built connecting Wenatchee to Devils Gulch too.  No idea if any will be open to moto.

I suggest contacting DNR and asking why MTB is getting new trails built that resemble supercross tracks in the woods while moto gets ignored.

My email on 6/13 to Tim Stapleton, DNR Statewide Recreation Manager tim.stapleton@dnr.wa.gov

"Hello,

Living near Raging River, it is great to see these new trails and I have been riding them regularly. I can’t help but compare the Popping Tops and Flow State trails to motocross tracks, especially Popping Tops, which has jumps as large as those found on actual MX tracks. That begs the question of, when DNR is building a machine built motocross track through the woods, why aren’t motorcycles having similar facilities developed? Especially with the advancement of electric motorcycles, such as the Alta, that could allow such use near population centers like Seattle.  Please afford motorcycle users the same consideration being given to MTB users. 

Thanks,"

The DNR response from the local rec guy that Tim delegated to:

"Thanks for reaching out; I am glad you are enjoying the new Raging River State Forest trail system.  
We've been in touch before, so I'm aware that you are familiar with the public planning process that resulted in the Snoqualmie Corridor Recreation Plan that identified the entire planning area as a non-motorized landscape with the northern Raging River State Forest area providing a primary recreation management objective of mountain biking.  Some of the new trails that opened 5/19 were constructed with opportunities for jumping and to provide diverse riding experiences coupled with some of the more technical hand-built segments, balanced across the entire first 17-mile phase of new trail development.  We are finishing up full design for Phase 2 efforts and thus far it's looking like we will focus on more hand built trails where feasible with less machine built features and manipulation.

Our agency does offer motorized recreation trail opportunities at nearby landscapes, such as Tahuya State Forest, Reiter Foothills Forest, and the Walker Valley ORV area.  If you would like to get more involved with providing feedback on specific trail design to local Recreation Managers on new motorized trail development projects, let me know and I can put you in touch.  Reiter Foothills will be adding more motorized trail mileage, as funding allows, implementing their trail plan, so there may be opportunities to target new styles of trail. 

Take care,  

Sam Jarrett
Snoqualmie Recreation & Natural Areas District Manager
Statewide Trails Specialist
South Puget Sound Region
Washington State Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
(206) 375-0448
sam.jarrett@dnr.wa.gov"

 

[motovita]

 It's like they are redefining the word "trail", or at least blurring the line between trail and skate park.

[Chuck.]

Capitol Forest does build new moto trails, usually after a disaster like the Kennedy Creek land slides, and they do routine maintenance. However not much publicity and a lot of the trails suffer from deferred maintenance.  There are ad hoc, or abandoned, trails in CF and DNR brings in the mini excavator and digs craters to discourage use.

All that does is make the trail more gnarly. ?

[FlyingDirtrider]

22 hours ago, ACree said:

My email on 6/13 to Tim Stapleton, DNR Statewide Recreation Manager tim.stapleton@dnr.wa.gov 

Wow, his reply was a long winded version of "too bad, go somewhere else" without even touching on the very fair point you raised. ?
That kind of smugness really gets on my nerves and is exactly the kind of attitude of most of the pedaling crowd.

So... what do we do? How do we replicate what they've been able to accomplish? What do they have that we don't?
(just thinking out loud here)

Perhaps just straight up ask Tim that question and hold him to it till we get a straight answer?
It's gotta be more complex than "more money more people".

[ACree]

26 minutes ago, MCahill said:

Wow, his reply was a long winded version of "too bad, go somewhere else" without even touching on the very fair point you raised. ?
That kind of smugness really gets on my nerves and is exactly the kind of attitude of most of the pedaling crowd.

So... what do we do? How do we replicate what they've been able to accomplish? What do they have that we don't?
(just thinking out loud here)

Perhaps just straight up ask Tim that question and hold him to it till we get a straight answer?
It's gotta be more complex than "more money more people".

As a starting point, more people need to ask him these questions.

I can't emphasize enough that some of these 'trails' are mx tracks in the woods.  Bermed, with tables and doubles, and built with mini excavators.  No other user group is getting trail so singularly focused.  It might not be feasible to have that near Seattle for traditional ICE bikes but there is no reason it couldn't be done for the Alta's and such that are coming.

Then moto groups need to be more active and organized with access issues.  Evergreen started when trails got closed to them. In 1989 IIRC.  They were doing nothing but defense until the mid 2000s.  All the gains you see now are the result of the work in those early years and turning the tide mostly in the last 10.

[motovita]

32 minutes ago, ACree said:

As a starting point, more people need to ask him these questions.

I can't emphasize enough that some of these 'trails' are mx tracks in the woods.  Bermed, with tables and doubles, and built with mini excavators.  No other user group is getting trail so singularly focused.  It might not be feasible to have that near Seattle for traditional ICE bikes but there is no reason it couldn't be done for the Alta's and such that are coming.

Then moto groups need to be more active and organized with access issues.  Evergreen started when trails got closed to them. In 1989 IIRC.  They were doing nothing but defense until the mid 2000s.  All the gains you see now are the result of the work in those early years and turning the tide mostly in the last 10.

 It sounds like Evergreen is an excellent template to follow.

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/

 Building race tracks in the woods and passing them off as trails is an impressive snow job.