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Championship bikes with estart and kicker

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5 hours ago, Bermudacat said:

'78 1/2 RM250 was the heaviest bike on the track and it cleaned up!

fullsizerender-3_1_orig.jpg

This bike gotta be way lighter than current enduro bikes.  Got no radiators and all the other crap that comes with new bikes.

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6 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

This bike gotta be way lighter than current enduro bikes.  Got no radiators and all the other crap that comes with new bikes.

250lbs and 38hp. Interestingly, it takes 3.5lbs of aluminum to dissipate as much heat as one pound of water.

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4 hours ago, Bermudacat said:

250lbs and 38hp. Interestingly, it takes 3.5lbs of aluminum to dissipate as much heat as one pound of water.

Maybe.. but I never had boiling so I had to stop riding in a race, or multiple waterpump seal and bearing failures , hose blowing up or smashed my radiators or had to buy guards or radiator caps or bigger radiators or fans or special expensive coolant etc etc etc. Those fins had no vulnerability I always had plenty enough power and it never slowed me down in riding and racing in any way like water cooling has multiple times on multiple bikes and air cooling cost me nothing. Water cooling has cost me thousands over the last 20 years on multiple Bikes. In theory water sounds like a good idea. In the real world in the case of enduro and hard trail it has a bunch of cons. For riding on the road and other track situations it may make a positive difference. Overall for hard enduro it sucks in practical comparative terms. In the 70’s and 80’s riding and racing I had zero of the negative issues that I’ve had to deal with with  water cooling. There’s also a price to watercool. How much more goes to upgrades and maintenance for water compared to zero for air? Hey but this is just what we are given and we all adapt because we have no choice. The bikes now are great in some ways and are a higher price in other ways. I just miss some aspects of other choices in older bikes but not others. I sure don’t want drum brakes. 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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5 hours ago, Bermudacat said:

250lbs and 38hp. Interestingly, it takes 3.5lbs of aluminum to dissipate as much heat as one pound of water.

Which bike you talking about?

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7 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Maybe.. but I never had boiling so I had to stop riding in a race, or multiple waterpump seal and bearing failures , hose blowing up or smashed my radiators or had to buy guards or radiator caps or bigger radiators or fans or special expensive coolant etc etc etc. Those fins had no vulnerability I always had plenty enough power and it never slowed me down in riding and racing in any way like water cooling has multiple times on multiple bikes and air cooling cost me nothing. Water cooling has cost me thousands over the last 20 years on multiple Bikes. In theory water sounds like a good idea. In the real world in the case of enduro and hard trail it has a bunch of cons. For riding on the road and other track situations it may make a positive difference. Overall for hard enduro it sucks in practical comparative terms. In the 70’s and 80’s riding and racing I had zero of the negative issues that I’ve had to deal with with  water cooling. There’s also a price to watercool. How much more goes to upgrades and maintenance for water compared to zero for air? Hey but this is just what we are given and we all adapt because we have no choice. The bikes now are great in some ways and are a higher price in other ways. I just miss some aspects of other choices in older bikes but not others. I sure don’t want drum brakes. 

xllnt, well done.. The newer high RPM and water cooled bikes are a maintenance nightmare money pit.   Not interested.  Ill take the older RM250 anytime.

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19 hours ago, Piney Woods said:

Which bike you talking about?

The one that uses aluminum fins to shed heat.

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22 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

 There’s also a price to watercool. ... The bikes now are great in some ways and are a higher price in other ways. I just miss some aspects of other choices in older bikes but not others. I sure don’t want drum brakes. 

all but one of my bikes are aircool, I kind of like the old-school simplicity. But one question - I don't have the answer - are air-cooled engines made with greater tolerances to allow for running hotter and thus more piston and cylinder distortion?  I'm not sure that would have any impact on power output, though, just piston life.

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16 minutes ago, podfish said:

all but one of my bikes are aircool, I kind of like the old-school simplicity. But one question - I don't have the answer - are air-cooled engines made with greater tolerances to allow for running hotter and thus more piston and cylinder distortion?  I'm not sure that would have any impact on power output, though, just piston life.

Yes.

Air cooled 4t heads are configured waaaaay differently too.

The 4t would never come close to a 2t if it wasn't for water cooling.

Everything else equal, a water cooled 400 will run away from an air cooled 650 as both bikes go to WFO.

All an air cooled engine can do to dissipate more heat is get hotter. As the temperature rises, efficiency and power fall.

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15 hours ago, chuck12345 said:

xllnt, well done.. The newer high RPM and water cooled bikes are a maintenance nightmare money pit.   Not interested.  Ill take the older RM250 anytime.

I just wish there was more of a balance of choices. I recognize advances in technology and I recognize also that some different strategies of dirtbike advancement isn’t always an advance for a bunch of situations. I like some things and don’t like some things regarding dirtbikes in the past and present. I love my Beta though  . 

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49 minutes ago, podfish said:

all but one of my bikes are aircool, I kind of like the old-school simplicity. But one question - I don't have the answer - are air-cooled engines made with greater tolerances to allow for running hotter and thus more piston and cylinder distortion?  I'm not sure that would have any impact on power output, though, just piston life.

Yea that’s supposedly thats part of the watercool direction. 

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49 minutes ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I just wish there was more of a balance of choices. I recognize advances in technology and I recognize also that some different strategies of dirtbike advancement isn’t always an advance for a bunch of situations. I like some things and don’t like some things regarding dirtbikes in the past and present. I love my Beta though  . 

yeah,  there's the good and the bad. The newer water cooled bikes are too much work and money to operate and maintain.  We all take a spill sometimes.  One situation is you could be way far from camp and the radiator might have taken a hit.  The only way out of that is to be towed with a rope or push.  yuk.....On an air cooled get up and get back on.  I like alot of the new modern tech.  Don't want water cooled on my dirt bike.  I have asked alot riders on some of my outings on the newer water cooled bikes.  They said they are to heavy. 

Edited by chuck12345

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yeah,  there's the good and the bad. The newer water cooled bikes are too much work and money to operate and maintain.  We all take a spill sometimes.  One situation is you could be way far from camp and the radiator might have taken a hit.  The only way out of that is to be towed with a rope or push.  yuk.....On an air cooled get up and get back on.  I like alot of the new modern tech.  Don't want water cooled on my dirt bike.  I have asked alot riders on some of my outings on the newer water cooled bikes.  They said they are to heavy. 


We all have opinions yet your statement is so biased.

IMHO.....

1. Newer watercooled bikes have been here for 30+ years we all deal with it, too much work what in our society on motor vehicles is less work than 30 years ago?
2. Money? Everything costs more, than 30 years ago.
3. I’ve smashed radiators far from the end of the trail, I’ve always made it back to camp, it’s not a death sentence. To be towed out is BS!

I’ve been buying new dirt bikes every 3-4 years since 1982, sometimes 2 in that timeframe. To me and 100’s of thousands of other riders embrace today’s technology 1000% compared to the old shit we used to ride.

I’ve had a few friends bitch about costs or complexity, I tell them to put their big boy pants on, or stay on the porch....


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I loved my RM250, awesome bike!

I love my DRZ400, awesome bike!

Soon, I will love my 2t RE Beta, awesome bikes!

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May I suggest a new solution for extremely slow riding or crash inflicted efficiency? 

Retractable CDI / ECU governed cylinder fins. The best of both worlds... 

 

Don't ask about the cost, this is James Bond technology.... 

 

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3 hours ago, Bermudacat said:

Yes.

Air cooled 4t heads are configured waaaaay differently too.

The 4t would never come close to a 2t if it wasn't for water cooling.

Everything else equal, a water cooled 400 will run away from an air cooled 650 as both bikes go to WFO.

All an air cooled engine can do to dissipate more heat is get hotter. As the temperature rises, efficiency and power fall.

Yea for mx etc and it used to be 2 45 min motos or 3 30 minute motos even for minibike mx races in 1970’s so end of the motos maybe there was some drop in power at the end of the moto but maybe that applies to pros more.  It doesn’t matter now anyway as they just straight out just  barred big bore 2 strokes . :bonk: No one ever argued that they were upset that they lost power at the end of a moto with their 500 Maico, Husky or KTM 2 stroke. There was power everywhere and the whole time.  

I know it wont happen but a nice modern big bore 2 stroke would be cool. Say a nice 400? Of course changing the motor size rules too back to what’s fair  and since we are at it go back to an open class with big bores including 2 strokes. 

Ok all completely way off topic. It’s just interesting to see that a kickstarter is put back on the highest level champion enduro racers bikes. 2 champions too ...on Betas for this example. 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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2 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I know it wont happen but a nice modern big bore 2 stroke would be cool. Say a nice 400? Of course changing the motor size rules too back to what’s fair  and since we are at it go back to an open class with big bores including 2 strokes. 

Ok all completely way off topic. It’s just interesting to see that a kickstarter is put back on the highest level champion enduro racers bikes. 2 champions too ...on Betas for this example. 

You mean like the 1979 RM400? :D

Unlike the RM250 I posted, this beauty still has the stock shocks that featured remote reservoirs and two-piece progressive springs.

But, to wander back towards topic, yes; with today's modern manufacturing and design, the gap between works racing bikes and what the dealer sells is becoming a narrower margin.

1979_RM400.jpg

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