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2019 Beta 500 RR-S charging problems. What should i look for

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Beta has verified that the wire is cut at the factory and that the capacitor and diode bank are leftovers from the race bikes and unnecessary on the RR-S. 

Check the MY 2019 500 RR-S thread for further updates.

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Anyone experience idle issues with low battery voltage?  I’ve got a 2019 500rr-s and it’s having idle fluctuations and flame out on chopped throttle with low battery voltage on the stock battery.  It’s not the idle control unit (little continental stepper motor on top of throttle body- that’s been removed and cleaned).  When the battery is fully charged problem goes away.  Going to replace battery and add bypass switch for headlight.  I’ve got the optional byob higher power headlight so that probably hinders the charging.  I have a backup jump start battery for use on rides but was also concerned if the charging system would keep the bike running on a dead battery.  With enough speed can a bump start light it up and will it stay running?  
  I’ve also had some other disappointing issues with the beta, but it’s generally a pretty fun bike and an outstanding dual sport.  Fortunately it’s in a stable of a few others.  If I only had one bike, I don’t think I’d get a beta.

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I am having the exact same issues. Mainly while riding slow speed single track, the voltage will get low and the idle will be all over the place, hi and low. If I have a chance to open it up to WOT for a moment it almost seems to reset the idle for a minute or so before it starts again. 

I took it in to the shop for this same issue, they told me that I had low voltage because of a bad battery, and I was having the idle issues because I had a piece of dirt in the throttle body. The Shop charged me $125 to clean the throttle body and gave me the bike back with a new battery.  After a couple rides, same thing, low voltage, awful idle and the bike would start after a couple miles of single track. I am gong to contact the dealer tomorrow and take it back in. Pretty bummed on the Beta so far, It has less than 1000 miles and has had nothing but problems, not the best 10K Ive ever spent

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4 hours ago, Doete36 said:

I am having the exact same issues. Mainly while riding slow speed single track, the voltage will get low and the idle will be all over the place, hi and low. If I have a chance to open it up to WOT for a moment it almost seems to reset the idle for a minute or so before it starts again. 

I took it in to the shop for this same issue, they told me that I had low voltage because of a bad battery, and I was having the idle issues because I had a piece of dirt in the throttle body. The Shop charged me $125 to clean the throttle body and gave me the bike back with a new battery.  After a couple rides, same thing, low voltage, awful idle and the bike would start after a couple miles of single track. I am gong to contact the dealer tomorrow and take it back in. Pretty bummed on the Beta so far, It has less than 1000 miles and has had nothing but problems, not the best 10K Ive ever spent

Your bike requires electricity to run. When your voltage drops too low it will start to run poorly and eventually not run at all. You most likely have the same charging system problem we all have. It is caused by poor connections in the harness. Running it at high rpms allows the battery to recharge giving the bike a source of electricity to run on at lower rpms. Replacing the battery with a new/fully charged battery will do the same. 
Read the thread for more details. 

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Sometime in 2019, Beta went to a different rear harness that eliminated the rear diodes/capacitors.  Coupled with the "revised/updated" "front harness for services"-as the updated/upgraded rear harness will NOT plug and play with the "old" harness'. 

This solved most of the charging problems.  

The charging system is taxed/stressed/pushed anytime the headlight is on and the cooling fan has to run and the result exposes a weak battery.  

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1 hour ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Sometime in 2019, Beta went to a different rear harness that eliminated the rear diodes/capacitors.  Coupled with the "revised/updated" "front harness for services"-as the updated/upgraded rear harness will NOT plug and play with the "old" harness'. 

This solved most of the charging problems.  

The charging system is taxed/stressed/pushed anytime the headlight is on and the cooling fan has to run and the result exposes a weak battery.  

You have that backwards. A weak battery will expose charging problems that a strong battery can mask. 
Blaming a battery for a charging system problem is like blaming a reservoir for water shortages during a drought. 
A properly functioning charging system supplies ALL the electrical needs of the vehicle from idle to redline. The battery is only there to supply electrical power when the engine is stopped. 
Your eagerness to help others is commendable. Help them by providing accurate information. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Go_outside said:

You have that backwards. A weak battery will expose charging problems that a strong battery can mask. 
Blaming a battery for a charging system problem is like blaming a reservoir for water shortages during a drought. 
A properly functioning charging system supplies ALL the electrical needs of the vehicle from idle to redline. The battery is only there to supply electrical power when the engine is stopped. 
Your eagerness to help others is commendable. Help them by providing accurate information. 

I'm so very thankful that you have corrected my faulty thinking.  I offer my most sincerest apologies.  Your expertise with the Beta's electrical issue is to be both admired and heralded.  

Please continue, unhindered, with your most excellent, accurate and helpful information.  

 

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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I had charging issues on my '18 350RR-s. I ended up tearing into the harness, there are 3 or 4 crimped connections(I can't remember exactly) in the frame area above the throttle body. The crimped connections eventually start to corrode, you gotta clean them up and then solder them. While I was there, I cleaned up the chassis ground. Instantly got a whole extra volt at idle. The 2019 harness does eliminate the diodes, but doesn't address the corroded-crimps issue. 

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11 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

I'm so very thankful that you have corrected my faulty thinking.  I offer my most sincerest apologies.  Your expertise with the Beta's electrical issue is to be both admired and heralded.  

Please continue, unhindered, with your most excellent, accurate and helpful information.  

 

Wow, If what i posted hurt your feelings you really wouldn't have liked it before i re-wrote it. Im ok with you blaming me for your bad advice. None of us are perfect. 

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It is no biggie, I will not require therapy as I don't feel all too much about it as it is all just the pandemic typing, besides, I'm a true, 100% moron  . . . 

 

All I can think of is it is all so simple and all Beta's fault.  

1.  The charging system is not strong enough.

 

2.  No matter how fast one runs the engine, the Beta system draws more voltage/amps/whatever electricity it produces-when it is running, and the system, for some ODD reason, creates the most energy when the engine is idling.  This has been the accepted by all those who are incredible with electricity-not me as all I do is parrot what they had to type. 

 

3.  When the headlight and fan run, for extended periods, the battery, no matter weak or strong, new or old, is drawn down and no amount of idling or running the motor is going to revive that battery.  

 

The fix is whatever upgrade to the charging system upgrade one chooses to employ as the only fix at this time is in the wiring as there is no upgrade to the stator-output.  

 

 

Is that all correct?  Is it wrong?  

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Well my better half says i didn't have to be a dick. Im sorry it came across that way, I was sincerely acknowledging your desire to help people. 
On my list of quarantine chores is “re-wire Beta”. On my workbench is an inline ammeter. In my mind is a plan. 
I haven't read the same information as you about the charging system getting weaker at higher rpms. I expect that to be incorrect. This would be the first alternator I have seen that doesn’t produce more power the faster it spins. I expect the reason people think the charging system gets weaker as they rev the bike is because the bike draws more electrical power the faster the engine revs. The ignition system, fuel injectors and fuel pump all use electricity. Im pretty sure I have typed all this before. 
I know that I have said on this thread and a few others that the problem is in the wiring harness crimps. I know that I and other members have verified it on this thread and others. 
The Beta is well engineered and poorly manufactured. Buying another poorly manufactured harness will net poor results if it is not rebuilt. It is less expensive and less work to find the crimps and repair them in the original harness. 

You may very well have a bad battery at this point, Li batteries dont like to be discharged bellow 13v, but it was caused by, not the cause of, a bad charging system. 
My irritation, which must have come through in my post, stems from all the misinformation on these forums. Most members are well meaning, some are Trolls. The net result is all the information becomes suspect. The forums become useless echo chambers of bullshit. And it is why I dont bother with them much anymore. 

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Posted (edited)

Since the voltage regulator is providing more recharge volts at low rpm  and not as many recharge volts at high rpms,  it needs to be reflashed or replaced with one that provides more recharge volts at higher rpms.

Hello Beta where are you?  We need a different voltage regulator, or one that produces more recharge volts at higher rpms.

Edited by oldman

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, oldman said:

Since the voltage regulator is providing more recharge volts at low rpm  and not as many recharge volts at high rpms,  it needs to be reflashed or replaced with one that provides more recharge volts at higher rpms.

Hello Beta where are you?  We need a different voltage regulator, or one that produces more recharge volts at higher rpms.

That is not how that works. 

 

The stator generates the ac power and the rr then converts that to DC and regulates the voltage. 

 

Think of the rr as the sink faucet and the stator as the reservoir. The stator might be undersized, but it also does not help the rr is a crappy shunt rr which is a 40 year old design. 

We have a shidengen sh640 rr which is a 25amp deal. They used that cause of size constraints. A newer series type rr has a bigger physical size but is more efficient. 

Since it seems we have lack of power generation partially due to undersized stator and power loss through resistance from bad connections. 

The best bandaid course of action would be to check connections solder them, replace the headlight with a led bulb (frees up some amps by about half, to be used else where and still allows light) and rerun the rr output wires straight to the battery and run a second positive wire and negative wire from the cut rr wires in the harness back to the battery. 

This makes the battery the main power point and also helps stabilize voltage because the battery can act as a buffer when voltage fluctuates because of rpms since the crappy shunt rr does not do a good job. 

My thoughts on the led bulb is the incandescent bulb helps pull extra power from the system and not overwork the rr. When you turn off the headlight or replace headlight with led, that power that was consumed by incandescent bulb has to go somewhere. Either to other systems that need it or as heat energy from the rr. Maybe by going led you free up a few extra amps that can keep the battery charged and not burn up the crappy rr.  Seems the bikes charging is just a touch undersized when every electrical device is running so using a led frees about 25 watts by removing the 55 watt incandescent bulb. 

Other options include getting a stator rewind for more output but we might already be maxed out on this, which comes down to physical constraints of stator and likely since most rewinds I see are about 200watt. 

Another option is try and find a better rr that fits in stock space. A series rr gives a more consistent voltage and is more efficient at its job. It shuts off stator legs aka turns off power generation instead of trying to dissipate the extra through heat generation. Less heat equals better efficiency hotter the rr gets the worse it gets at controlling things. 

https://roadstercycle.com/is a good place to start by better understanding how the system works and what options are out there. In general all motorcycles seem to have crappy charging systems. But many people before you have figured out ways to build a better mouse trap. You just need to start looking for reoccurring solutions that pop up in all the rr posts you can bare to read, and spot common consensus in them. 

Edited by rharr

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, rharr said:

That is not how that works. 

 

The stator generates the ac power and the rr then converts that to DC and regulates the voltage. 

 

 

My understanding of how the charging system works is as follows.

The stator generates an ac voltage as the rotor turns around it.  The faster the rotor turns the more ac voltage is generated.  That ac voltage goes to the regulator/rectifer which then converts the ac volts to dc volts and regulates the dc battery charging voltage to a level sufficient to recharge the battery.  On my 19 500rrs at idle my recharge voltage across the battery is 12.4 volts.  As I rev the engine the regulator cuts that recharge voltage down to about 12.0 volts.  Instead of regulating the voltage down it should rise but it does not.   Its no wonder battery low voltage occurs after the bike has been operated.

 As I stated before,  I believe the regulator/rectifier is the faulty component and needs to be reflashed or replaced by one that produces about 14+ volts as engine rpms rise.

Just an oldmans opinion.  Sometimes it seems we can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Edited by oldman

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Holy &%$#@!ing shit. 
Old man, read the &%$#@!ing thread. 
Better yet, pull your regulator off and go find someone to reflash it. Let us know when it is done. 

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Posted (edited)

Have you gone though your harness and looked for corrosion at the crimps? This can cause resistance and heat, and as the motor revs more will generate more power which in turn just cause more heat and more resistance at the bad crimps. This all robs power and volts.

For fun probe the red and black wire coming off the RR while the bike is running and report back what voltage you are getting at idle and at high rev. That is the most accurate way to tell if the RR is failing. The meter on the dash is only reporting voltage that has run through the harness and there are a lot of things that are stealing voltage before it gets to the dash meter, point being it's not that accurate.

Shunt RR's don't work very well at low RPM and are more of a voltage limiter then a modulator. They just cap voltage at a set limit and shunt any extra to ground. If it is not getting enough juice from the stator then it won't hit it's max output. 

 

If you don't trust the RR you can try buying a FH020AA Mosfet Regulator/Rectifier from roadstercycles or buy a cheaper Chinese knock off version on ebay or amazon (mileage may very) for testing purposes and see if patching that in changes your voltage situation (it is bigger physically so a relocate will probably be needed, if you plan to run it). The FH020aa is a new design then the SH640 we have and is more efficient at doing it's job, end result can generate a little more juice with the same system.

 

Ultimately i think the fault lays in the wiring not the system as evidenced by beta issuing a patch cable that bypasses some of the existing harness for the 18/19 years. No one has report yet what exactly this patch kit bypasses or what it reroutes. My best guess is it makes a more direct connection from the RR to the battery, and feeds the bike from the battery instead of the RR as this seems to be the general approach by the masses of RR replacement threads found on the web and as recommend by roadstercycle.

The stock RR isn't great but it's not bad, its a shindengen SH640. Shindengen has been making RR's for long time and shunt RR's for 60 years so i doubt it's RR. 

If you want to play RR games, the things you need to look for when choosing is you need a 3-phase (3 yellow wires) RR and at minimum a 25amp max current rated one. Other then that the sky is the limit, physical size the biggest factor, options include MOSFET shunt style or Series style RR or even another shunt style.

I am currently trying to see if i can find a small body Series RR, as that style is the cream of the crop and has some good features. 

 

Edited by rharr

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Thanks for all the replies. This forum is great and has some great info despite all the discrepancy. I come from a long history of carbureted motocross bikes and have never really dealt with all these lights/charging systems and batteries. 
  The bike runs great with a fully charged battery and produces between 12.2-12.35v at idle and high rev. I haven’t had a voltage meter with me on the trail when the problem starts so I haven’t been able to check it yet. I’m gonna keep hunting down the problem and I will provide a update when I find something. Thanks again for the help. 

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Problem solved!!

I unplugged the headlight before my last ride. The voltage immediately went up to over 13v. Rode the bike all day with no idle issues. 

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3 hours ago, Doete36 said:

Problem solved!!

I unplugged the headlight before my last ride. The voltage immediately went up to over 13v. Rode the bike all day with no idle issues. 

Im not sure id call that solved. 
You should be getting 14v with the headlight burning. 

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I did some more testing, im only getting 13-13.6v at the regulator. Beta has offered to take a look even though its out of warranty. 
Also, I have nearly a half volt drop across the ignition switch when under load that lowers the voltage readout on the dash. 

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