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$200 bet for the montana unassisted rock climb. who and where

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On 5/28/2019 at 10:52 AM, cdf450 said:

 Long story short, we cut across the sand to get to a cool arch picture following someone else’s old tracks in the sand near the sovereign single track. Ended up riding 2.1 miles off trail in the 19 days we were there. Someone saw and reported us, took pics. Everything. So the blm walked our tracks, 4 diff times. With a archaeologist, an ecologist. And other fancy ologists. Charged us for every hour they spent on the case ($6000usd in wages) charged us to rake the tracks, charged us to monitor the tracks for the next 3 years, charged us to write 35 pages of reports and other BS. They had pie graphs and charts and everything. Claimed we rode over 373 plants. 75% of which will recover. Then went on my ig account and found another pic from 2+ years ago where I once again went off the trail into the sand a little to take a pic of the rocks. hit me with 3 more charges ($1620) for that one. Only at one point did we ride passed a “no motorized vehicle” sign to connect one trail to another.. (like an hour glass shape and we were in the middle. The skinniest point) that was about 100’ of a sand wash, then a few hundred feet of slickrock to get back to a trail versus backtracking about 15 miles, we took a shortcut instead.  

In the end, it was our bad. We messed up and rode on the sand (most of which was wind blown over within 48 hours, our tracks weren’t much more than 2 hikers walking single file). Some areas of Utah is 100% freedom. Ride wherever, whenever, which we had done with no problems for 3 weeks straight prior to this in the dunes and slick rock of st George. Not Moab though. Wow.

 

The fines are nothing, that’s not even 2 weeks wages. No biggie. The 18 month ban kinda sucks though. The scary part was it being federal and a possible lifetime ban from entering the USA over riding in the sand a little. That’s where the lawyer came in... we’re allowed back thankfully. See ya guys in 2020!

 

 

The dogs doing good and getting extra spoiled. So glad he’s ok. Vet said it’s a miracle he’s alive.

 

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Thanks for additional detail.  I would agree sounds like a bit of overkill for what you described.  But now you know that it is important to stay the trail..even if all the winter and spring storms wiped away those traces of tracks you guys made.  It is easy to get offtrack when you are out in certain portions of this desert terrain, but I think you lose that line of defense when you are several miles off track to take in a view.  People can accept confusion and benign negligence.  Not so much willful disregard and that kind of sounds like the situation.

Life has a funny way of knocking you down.  I think more humility and using some common sense are some important take-aways from this whole thread.  I dont like to see bad things happen to people and hope you will incorporate these lessons into your future thinking.

Best of luck to you on healing.

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the 6k going to the park service seems strange, did you venture into Arches? cuz that will certainly get their attention. so someone took pics of you and the BLM LEO tracked you down in Moab based on those pics? did you see the person who took the pics? how'd they find you? I also find it interesting that the BLM got involved at all seeing how sovereign is on state land. Seems fishy. 

  We were 200’ Into arches boundary which is allowed (there is legal trails there) but we happened to go off trail a little WHILE in arches.. didn’t know that we were in arches till after when we saw gps tracks. We saw no park signage or anything that day except one “no atv allowed” sign on the way out (hourglass shortcut) . Still, it was our bad. We didn’t deny anything and we took full blame and responsibility. We also, IMO, didn’t cause “major resource damage” like the fine said. We rode some sand ffs.. no worse than 2 hikers trails. Didn’t do burnouts, wreck any rock, or ride like dicks. Two, low powered, enduro 2 strokes putting through the sand, like everyone does out there, all the time.

 

Someone saw us off trail, off the bikes just walking around checking the rock out. Took pics. Then bee lined to service area to rat us out ASAP before “there was confrontation”. It was a Jeep. We passed that Jeep on the way out and didn’t know they were racing to cell service to rat us out. They took pics of our faces and bikes as we passed. Good pics too. The blm knew what we looked like. Numbers on bike. Colour of my gear bag. Everything.

 

The next day the blm came to our hotel while I was in parking lot messing with tubliss and that’s when it all went downhill. We didn’t deny. We were honest, respectful, and confused. We started on sovereign and rode all day ending up near arches via a little bit of free riding through the sand and ride over a few small bushes and blades of grass in the process. They didn’t mess around that’s for sure. Lots of lessons learned here, the expensive/hard way. Story of my life. Oh well. Could of been worse! I hope all of us as well as future readers learn a little something from this. (Of course.. you guys know everything already. That’s obvious). I know we sure did!!

 

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Posted (edited)

THanks for the info. I can see why they got all excited. National parks don't mess around.  There are no legal "trails" for unplated motos in arches, just a couple dirt roads for plated bikes and jeeps. I guess arches must be on BLM land. I'm curious what would happen had you been caught off trail on the state land around sovereign. Division of natural recourses supposedly controls that area. Oh and that dang tubliss is nothing but trouble! 

Edited by enduro-ince
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THanks for the info. I can see why they got all excited. National parks don't mess around.  There are no legal "trails" for unplated motos in arches, just a couple dirt roads for plated bikes and jeeps. I guess arches must be on BLM land. I'm curious what would happen had you been caught off trail on the state land around sovereign. Division of natural recourses supposedly controls that area. 


Exactly. It all comes down to 2-400’ of boundary really. It all started with a $330 minor resource damage fine, which is fair and appropriate. Then snowballed hard from there when they really went out and looked. Between lawyer fees for the two of us and fines, it cost us about $15,000.

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2 hours ago, cdf450 said:

  We were 200’ Into arches boundary which is allowed (there is legal trails there) but we happened to go off trail a little WHILE in arches.

 Two, low powered, enduro 2 strokes putting through the sand, like everyone does out there, all the time.

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According to their report there was over 2100 meters of tracks.    :prof: 

Given two motorcycles and two way travel that's about 525 meters of illegal travel off of the legal trail or about 1725 feet off of the legal trail.    :rolleyes:

 

As for the "Two, low powered, enduro 2 strokes" what were you riding?   Kawasaki KD80's????   :excuseme:

 

 

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3 hours ago, cdf450 said:

  We were 200’ Into arches boundary which is allowed (there is legal trails there) but we happened to go off trail a little WHILE in arches.. didn’t know that we were in arches till after when we saw gps tracks. We saw no park signage or anything that day except one “no atv allowed” sign on the way out (hourglass shortcut) . Still, it was our bad. We didn’t deny anything and we took full blame and responsibility. We also, IMO, didn’t cause “major resource damage” like the fine said. We rode some sand ffs.. no worse than 2 hikers trails. Didn’t do burnouts, wreck any rock, or ride like dicks. Two, low powered, enduro 2 strokes putting through the sand, like everyone does out there, all the time.

 

Someone saw us off trail, off the bikes just walking around checking the rock out. Took pics. Then bee lined to service area to rat us out ASAP before “there was confrontation”. It was a Jeep. We passed that Jeep on the way out and didn’t know they were racing to cell service to rat us out. They took pics of our faces and bikes as we passed. Good pics too. The blm knew what we looked like. Numbers on bike. Colour of my gear bag. Everything.

 

The next day the blm came to our hotel while I was in parking lot messing with tubliss and that’s when it all went downhill. We didn’t deny. We were honest, respectful, and confused. We started on sovereign and rode all day ending up near arches via a little bit of free riding through the sand and ride over a few small bushes and blades of grass in the process. They didn’t mess around that’s for sure. Lots of lessons learned here, the expensive/hard way. Story of my life. Oh well. Could of been worse! I hope all of us as well as future readers learn a little something from this. (Of course.. you guys know everything already. That’s obvious). I know we sure did!!

 

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Probably some granola eating, sandal wearing, pot smoking eco-hippy that ratted you guys out.  I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.  All for trampling on some fucking plants and making tracks in sand?  Who gives a shit?  The plants will grow back, and the sand will be ok I'm sure.  These idiots have to justify their existence (and salaries) somehow I guess.  Amazing what we will tolerate in this country. 

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7 minutes ago, MTDirtRider said:

Probably some granola eating, sandal wearing, pot smoking eco-hippy that ratted you guys out.  I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.  All for trampling on some &%$#@!ing plants and making tracks in sand?  Who gives a shit?  The plants will grow back, and the sand will be ok I'm sure.  These idiots have to justify their existence (and salaries) somehow I guess.  Amazing what we will tolerate in this country. 

It was a jeep not a Subaru. 

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9 minutes ago, MTDirtRider said:

Probably some granola eating, sandal wearing, pot smoking eco-hippy that ratted you guys out.  I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.  All for trampling on some &%$#@!ing plants and making tracks in sand?  Who gives a shit?  The plants will grow back, and the sand will be ok I'm sure.  These idiots have to justify their existence (and salaries) somehow I guess.  Amazing what we will tolerate in this country. 

My perspective is a little different. 

 

I will agree, it's sand and some desert plants that have existed for thousands of years. 

They will survive. 

 

What will not survive if people keep riding in protected areas is motorized access as a whole. We're out gunned on this front with SUWA and many other organizations that would like nothing more than to have ammo for the fight to close motorized routes entirely. I for one am selfish and want the ability to enjoy what we have and not lose more. When the careless come and break the rules, it affects us all. 

 

Don't give a SH**? Don't come here. Instead you can trash your own backyard. Utah, Canyonlands in general is already a VERY sensitive situation. I'd prefer we did not lose it. Is is ridiculous that we have to play by the rules? Sure. 

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8 minutes ago, enduro-ince said:

It was a jeep not a Subaru. 

Haha, as a Wrangler owner, I would never pull a dick move like that.  I'm sure they were real proud of themselves, definitely saved Moab for generations to come.  No telling if that sand will ever recover.  And those bushes, all of which look dead, must be championed by someone. 

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On 5/30/2019 at 3:52 PM, enduro-ince said:

It was a jeep not a Subaru. 

Tom makes funny!

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On 5/30/2019 at 4:05 PM, MTDirtRider said:

Haha, as a Wrangler owner, I would never pull a dick move like that.  I'm sure they were real proud of themselves, definitely saved Moab for generations to come.  No telling if that sand will ever recover.  And those bushes, all of which look dead, must be championed by someone. 

You don't seem to get it.  We'd ALL like to go wherever we damn please, but most of us don't because we do understand that we aren't the only ones on the planet and we want to be able to ride off-road in the future.  There are trails to follow in most areas and there are just a few open riding areas where people can ride anywhere. Arches is NOT one of the places where you can just go whereever you want....in fact, its the opposite!

You call ratting on someone who is violating the rules a dick move. Well, from the sounds of it you'd go ride anywhere you damn please on your bike or ATV and, to me, THAT is a real dick move!  Lots of people in these parts put in lots of effort and spend lotsa $$$ fighting lawsuits so we have places to ride, and selfish riders who ride anywhere they please will simply hasten the closure of everything we are fighting to keep open.

Arches is a National Park. Sovereign is on Utah School and Institutional Trust Land. If it weren't for the efforts of Ride with Respect we wouldn't be able to ride Sovereign at all. It was their first big win for us. Violations there are taken very seriously. In fact, not too long ago a few people persisted in riding wherever they damn please and I can assure you that cameras were installed to capture their pictures. If that kinda crap were the norm, I know that the land would be made off limits to everyone. Similar deal with Arches (just like any National park) DONT go riding around where you aren't allowed.

Just last year some jackasses rented some jeeps in SW Colorado and did pretty much what you are advocating....they went off the roads and drove through some sensitive terrain. I'm glad that a hiker happened to be nearby and captured some great pictures of them. Pretty significant penalties were applied....just like here.

Speaking of sensitive terrain...the sand may look just like sand to you, but alot of it is cryptobiotic soil. OH....and it was winter, so the blackbrush, that looked dead to you, was dormant.

https://www.nps.gov/articles/seug-soil-crust.htm

 

Edited by dmac1
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30 minutes ago, dmac1 said:

You don't seem to get it.  We'd ALL like to go wherever we damn please, but most of us don't because we do understand that we aren't the only ones on the planet and we want to be able to ride off-road in the future.  There are trails to follow in most areas and there are just a few open riding areas where people can ride anywhere. Arches is NOT one of the places where you can just go whereever you want....in fact, its the opposite!

You call ratting on someone who is violating the rules a dick move. Well, from the sounds of it you'd go ride anywhere you damn please on your bike or ATV and, to me, THAT is a real dick move!  Lots of people in these parts put in lots of effort and spend lotsa $$$ fighting lawsuits so we have places to ride, and selfish riders who ride anywhere they please will simply hasten the closure of everything we are fighting to keep open.

Arches is a National Park. Sovereign is on Utah School and Institutional Trust Land. If it weren't for the efforts of Ride with Respect we wouldn't be able to ride Sovereign at all. It was their first big win for us. Violations there are taken very seriously. In fact, not too long ago a few people persisted in riding wherever they damn please and I can assure you that cameras were installed to capture their pictures. If that kinda crap were the norm, I know that the land would be made off limits to everyone. Similar deal with Arches (just like any National park) DONT go riding around where you aren't allowed.

Just last year some jackasses rented some jeeps in SW Colorado and did pretty much what you are advocating....they went off the roads and drove through some sensitive terrain. I'm glad that a hiker happened to be nearby and captured some great pictures of them. Pretty significant penalties were applied....just like here.

Speaking of sensitive terrain...the sand may look just like sand to you, but alot of it is cryptobiotic soil. OH....and it was winter, so the blackbrush, that looked dead to you, was dormant.

https://www.nps.gov/articles/seug-soil-crust.htm

 

I'm pretty sure no one here was advocating riding off-trail in Arches...

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9 hours ago, mikea 2 said:

I'm pretty sure no one here was advocating riding off-trail in Arches...

Sorta...but the following and the previously quoted post express a very cavalier attitude toward riding on public lands:

"All for trampling on some &%$#@!ing plants and making tracks in sand?  Who gives a shit?  The plants will grow back, and the sand will be ok I'm sure.  These idiots have to justify their existence (and salaries) somehow I guess.  Amazing what we will tolerate in this country."

It sucks that we can't go back to the days of yore and ride wherever the spirit moves us and create trails as we see fit, but the reality is, the environmentalists will shut us down and thats why we hafta giva shit about stuff like this. 

Here is some perspective from my point of view:

I just spent the better part of a week camping in the dez and helping the BLM create brand new trails for us. Yep, legal and brand spankin new singletrack!  They are putting tons of effort into this for us and 18 of us riders (dirt bike AND MTB) took some time out of our lives to help and give back to the sport. Guess what some yahoos (not part of the volunteer crew) who were near me one night did?  Had a party out in BFE and made a huge mess, most significant of which, was they tried to light the dez on fire and they burned numerous juniper trees, lotsa sage and other plants and left bottles and trash in their wake. But who gives a shit, theres tons of dez!!  Well, I for one, and likely most of us.

And yep, I reported them to the BLM.  Dick move?  I think not.

Edited by dmac1
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On 6/14/2019 at 7:35 AM, dmac1 said:

Sorta...but the following and the previously quoted post express a very cavalier attitude toward riding on public lands:

"All for trampling on some &%$#@!ing plants and making tracks in sand?  Who gives a shit?  The plants will grow back, and the sand will be ok I'm sure.  These idiots have to justify their existence (and salaries) somehow I guess.  Amazing what we will tolerate in this country."

It sucks that we can't go back to the days of yore and ride wherever the spirit moves us and create trails as we see fit, but the reality is, the environmentalists will shut us down and thats why we hafta giva shit about stuff like this. 

Here is some perspective from my point of view:

I just spent the better part of a week camping in the dez and helping the BLM create brand new trails for us. Yep, legal and brand spankin new singletrack!  They are putting tons of effort into this for us and 18 of us riders (dirt bike AND MTB) took some time out of our lives to help and give back to the sport. Guess what some yahoos (not part of the volunteer crew) who were near me one night did?  Had a party out in BFE and made a huge mess, most significant of which, was they tried to light the dez on fire and they burned numerous juniper trees, lotsa sage and other plants and left bottles and trash in their wake. But who gives a shit, theres tons of dez!!  Well, I for one, and likely most of us.

And yep, I reported them to the BLM.  Dick move?  I think not.

good man!  This is why we can't have nice things...

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I encountered a bunch of side by sides on a single track last weekend in Pipestone. Some were too wide to be on 4 wheeler trails. They were all from Canada. Luckily, they brought their chain saw so they could make it through. 

I guess it's going around. 

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1 minute ago, mikea 2 said:

I encountered a bunch of side by sides on a single track last weekend in Pipestone. Some were too wide to be on 4 wheeler trails. They were all from Canada. Luckily, they brought their chain saw so they could make it through. 

I guess it's going around. 

looks like there needs to be some more people banned from the country

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Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2019 at 10:33 PM, dmac1 said:

You don't seem to get it.  We'd ALL like to go wherever we damn please, but most of us don't because we do understand that we aren't the only ones on the planet and we want to be able to ride off-road in the future.  There are trails to follow in most areas and there are just a few open riding areas where people can ride anywhere. Arches is NOT one of the places where you can just go whereever you want....in fact, its the opposite!

You call ratting on someone who is violating the rules a dick move. Well, from the sounds of it you'd go ride anywhere you damn please on your bike or ATV and, to me, THAT is a real dick move!  Lots of people in these parts put in lots of effort and spend lotsa $$$ fighting lawsuits so we have places to ride, and selfish riders who ride anywhere they please will simply hasten the closure of everything we are fighting to keep open.

Arches is a National Park. Sovereign is on Utah School and Institutional Trust Land. If it weren't for the efforts of Ride with Respect we wouldn't be able to ride Sovereign at all. It was their first big win for us. Violations there are taken very seriously. In fact, not too long ago a few people persisted in riding wherever they damn please and I can assure you that cameras were installed to capture their pictures. If that kinda crap were the norm, I know that the land would be made off limits to everyone. Similar deal with Arches (just like any National park) DONT go riding around where you aren't allowed.

Just last year some jackasses rented some jeeps in SW Colorado and did pretty much what you are advocating....they went off the roads and drove through some sensitive terrain. I'm glad that a hiker happened to be nearby and captured some great pictures of them. Pretty significant penalties were applied....just like here.

Speaking of sensitive terrain...the sand may look just like sand to you, but alot of it is cryptobiotic soil. OH....and it was winter, so the blackbrush, that looked dead to you, was dormant.

https://www.nps.gov/articles/seug-soil-crust.htm

 

I think you are referring to the SxS incident near Silverton, but yeah, they got caught on camera.

As for the cryptobiotic soil, glad you mentioned it, 99% of folks don't have any idea that it exists and what it does.  I've mentioned it a few times and kind of got the e equivalent of blank looks.  Here's part of a single track trail in the hills behind my house.  The soil to either side of the trail is mostly cryptobiotic soil that is there to hold things in place.  See how it is sort of lumpy and textured, it is hard but fragile.

20190503_183613.jpg

20190503_184441.jpg

Edited by BOAB
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16 hours ago, BOAB said:

I think you are referring to the SxS incident near Silverton, but yeah, they got caught on camera.

As for the cryptobiotic soil, glad you mentioned it, 99% of folks don't have any idea that it exists and what it does.  I've mentioned it a few times and kind of got the e equivalent of blank looks.  Here's part of a single track trail in the hills behind my house.  The soil to either side of the trail is mostly cryptobiotic soil that is there to hold things in place.  See how it is sort of lumpy and textured, it is hard but fragile.

20190503_183613.jpg

20190503_184441.jpg

I'm on my sister in law's computer (she lost her husband to cancer back in April). We're helping her post-op (knee replacement). She doesn't have wifi or cell signal but has been having a printer problem, so I'm trying to fix and signed on for a sec. LOL

Anyway, yes!  How could I forget that they were driving my least favorite OHVs??  

As for the crypto....yeah, a set of tire tracks through it will be there many years after they are made. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, dmac1 said:

I'm on my sister in law's computer (she lost her husband to cancer back in April). We're helping her post-op (knee replacement). She doesn't have wifi or cell signal but has been having a printer problem, so I'm trying to fix and signed on for a sec. LOL

Anyway, yes!  How could I forget that they were driving my least favorite OHVs??  

As for the crypto....yeah, a set of tire tracks through it will be there many years after they are made. 

Right behind my house.  Morons think that a single track is for one tire of their truck or SxS.  That's part of a single track trail on the left side of the picture going through the Mormon Tea.

20190411_190956.jpg

Edited by BOAB
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