ktmandhusky experience?

[NoFiddyPilot]

12 hours ago, Jeff aka Bolt said:

 

@Bryan Bosch

The JD Tuner is the only tuner to get.  But it doesn't unscrew what was done to the stock ignition. Not as big an issue with non street legal bikes.   

I'm just a trail rider. I don't need every last hp or arm jerking throttle response. Are you saying that the stock ignition timing is so BAD that even w/ the JD turner, the bike runs like an XR 70  or something? The reviews on the stock bike aren't bad, so with a desmog, JD, and FMF Q4, is it still half the performance of the non-street model? I'm betting no. A lot of riders get caught up in splitting hairs and frankly, most can't use all of what they have.  Do I need to be a Jarvis to notice in any meaningful way?

[dyno_dave]

How would anybody know the stock timing is bad? I haven't seen any actual measurements done. It's all butt dyno or pulled out of a butt hearsay.

[Hammy.]

It’s simple. The bikes come detuned in a big way. 

If your not concerned about getting all the power from the bike, the JD tuner is an improvement in “rideability” for lack of a better term...

the vortex is a whole different animal, that allows the bike to perform at its best. 

You can ride the bike stock all day. No worries. 

But we buy these particular bikes for a reason. And spend good money. To not spend a few hundred more to make them that much better seems pretty silly. 

[Jeff aka Bolt]

8 hours ago, armandogl said:

I just don't want to create or get anyone in trouble but not all of us might have $700+ to spend, and i just want to help our fellow riders and let them know there are deals out there if you search. e-bay the other day had $100 off i'm not gonna mention with who because people that sell them gonna get mad at me! hahahaha , i see that people in  thumper talk  are always helping  each other , that's why i like it, we are all riders not just people!  Braaaaaap! keep on riding from your baja friend!!

And this is why I take support phone calls every week from guys that hunt places like ebay to buy shit at the lowest of prices then the company cant or wont even pick up the phone to help you out.  I do it to help out my TT brothers and to teach them the value of doing business with people that actually support the products they sell.  They always come back even if they bought elsewhere because when they have a $700 box in the bike and they cant even calibrate it...  and they cant get help...  the light bulb goes off in their head...  and in hind sight they wish they had spent more time looking for a knowledgeable dealer rather than a one off cheap deal.

I say that as someone who is a Racer Support Company that is priced well below most retail dealerships.  But selling a high end premium product at $5 over cost when the US can't even get enough of them...  well thats not helping anyone out...  thats just dumb and stupid.  

[nots0much]

55 minutes ago, Bryan Bosch said:

I'm just a trail rider. I don't need every last hp or arm jerking throttle response. Are you saying that the stock ignition timing is so BAD that even w/ the JD turner, the bike runs like an XR 70  or something? The reviews on the stock bike aren't bad, so with a desmog, JD, and FMF Q4, is it still half the performance of the non-street model? I'm betting no. A lot of riders get caught up in splitting hairs and frankly, most can't use all of what they have.  Do I need to be a Jarvis to notice in any meaningful way?

that's my thought process as well. ktmandhusky actually has dyno charts for their tuner (rebranded JD? looks and appears to function the same) and charts with Vortex. there is maybe 0.5HP difference between the two on a 50HP+ bike. and the difference between stock and their tuner (JD?) is 14HP. if the 250 is anything like that, I'm ok with JD.

[Hammy.]

1 minute ago, sorbales said:

that's my thought process as well. ktmandhusky actually has dyno charts for their tuner (rebranded JD? looks and appears to function the same) and charts with Vortex. there is maybe 0.5HP difference between the two on a 50HP+ bike. and the difference between stock and their tuner (JD?) is 14HP. if the 250 is anything like that, I'm ok with JD.

We have the 350 and the 250 exc-f. Both 2018. 

Installed a JD on the 250. An improvement but definitely no more than a few HP. 

[nots0much]

3 minutes ago, Hammy-56 said:

We have the 350 and the 250 exc-f. Both 2018. 

Installed a JD on the 250. An improvement but definitely no more than a few HP. 

Uncorked? I wouldn't expect the 500 gains. The bigger bikes seem to be robbed by the emissions to a greater extent. 

[Jeff aka Bolt]

1 hour ago, Bryan Bosch said:

I'm just a trail rider. I don't need every last hp or arm jerking throttle response. Are you saying that the stock ignition timing is so BAD that even w/ the JD turn, the bike runs like an XR 70  or something? The reviews on the stock bike aren't bad, so with a desmog, JD, and FMF Q4, is it still half the performance of the non-street model? I'm betting no. A lot of riders get caught up in splitting hairs and frankly, most can't use all of what they have.

Its not about harsh and un-rideable power and massive power gains at WOT.  It's about linear & usable roll on power.  It is not splitting hairs...  truth is a properly tuned ignition system calibrated and programmed by the same company that designed your fuel curve is a performance gain over a fuel tuner.  The fuel tuner can add a percentage of fuel to compensate for a bike that's had it's intake and exhaust opened up.  But the stock ECU's map still dictates over all fuel & ignition characteristics based on programming meant to please the EPA.  That fuel and ignition curve was built by KTM to control exhaust pipe emissions as their first goal...  with whatever performance they can get after that.  Vortex has no such restrictions.

I take JD Tuners back in trade for a Vortex a couple times a month.  I never take back a Vortex for a JD Tuner.  And I challenge anyone to find a used one for sale.  People do not give up the Vortex once the money is spent.  And you don't find troubled clients complaining about them because they work.

Don't mistake my comparison as a bash on JD's Tuner.  It is the best fuel tuner solution on the market.  It fits a lot of budgets and does a great job for what it is.  But before anyone throws money at a pipe and fuel tuner I recommend seriously considering a Vortex & an PMB End Cap or DIY end cap mod.

IMHO 

[Jeff aka Bolt]

36 minutes ago, sorbales said:

Uncorked? I wouldn't expect the 500 gains. The bigger bikes seem to be robbed by the emissions to a greater extent. 

Uncorking a smaller cc bike actually feels pretty significant.  If anything I'd say more by the seat of the butt dyno because they are so anemic from the factory. 

[Hammy.]

2 hours ago, sorbales said:

Uncorked? I wouldn't expect the 500 gains. The bigger bikes seem to be robbed by the emissions to a greater extent. 

yea, I should have specified. Uncorked.

[Hammy.]

2 hours ago, sorbales said:

that's my thought process as well. ktmandhusky actually has dyno charts for their tuner (rebranded JD? looks and appears to function the same) and charts with Vortex. there is maybe 0.5HP difference between the two on a 50HP+ bike. and the difference between stock and their tuner (JD?) is 14HP. if the 250 is anything like that, I'm ok with JD.

OBVIOUSLY I wouldnt expect similar gains to the 500...only mentioned it because of your comment.

[Horgh]

I don't understand why we're having this discussion even. You can paint your drum brakes red, but they're not going to be as good as disk brakes. You can put hub caps on your steelies, but they won't be as good as nice alloy rims. You can buy a WRX STI, but you're never going to be as fast as an Evo. ?

But in all seriousness, a piggy-back fuel controller alters a fuel curve downstream of the ECU. Besides that adding time lag to the output of that process (likely not perceivable by the human riding it), it doesn't alter or improve anything else. A new ECU, programmed from top to bottom for performance, certainly does.

There was a huge difference in how my bike behaved before and after the Vortex. I would never give it up.

[nots0much]

1 minute ago, Horgh said:

You can buy a WRX STI, but you're never going to be as fast as an Evo.

You can make up a lot of ground while the Evo is on the lift. 

[Horgh]

Just now, sorbales said:

You can make up a lot of ground while the Evo is on the lift. 

Ok, I laughed. That was pretty good. We can still be friends ?

[Jeff aka Bolt]

4 hours ago, sorbales said:

that's my thought process as well. ktmandhusky actually has dyno charts for their tuner (rebranded JD? looks and appears to function the same) and charts with Vortex. there is maybe 0.5HP difference between the two on a 50HP+ bike. and the difference between stock and their tuner (JD?) is 14HP. if the 250 is anything like that, I'm ok with JD.

It ain't about dyno curves and total HP gains at WOT.  Its about proper fuel/air delivery with the perfect spark timing to deliver the best performance the bike can have at any moment at any throttle position. These aren't 1/4 milers fellas. If you can't wrap your head around that then the conversation is moot. 

Grabbing a handful of throttle and comparing dyno charts is virtually pointless...  it says so little about the ride-ability of the solutions at hand...  and it also underscores the lack of understanding in most of these types of dialogues.  I'd say this thread has piqued. 

Feel free to reach out if anyone needs a hand. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Jeff aka Bolt

[Horgh]

1 hour ago, Jeff aka Bolt said:

These aren't 1/4 milers fellas.

You godda dream bigger, Jeff ?

 

 

[dyno_dave]

I always calculated the area under the torque curve. That's the only way to see which makes more. Horsepower is just calculated from the torque and rpm values and isn't measured directly.

[Oregon Comrade]

3 hours ago, dyno_dave said:

I always calculated the area under the torque curve. That's the only way to see which makes more. Horsepower is just calculated from the torque and rpm values and isn't measured directly.

Wouldn't that only be relevant within a narrow band or RPM's?  Also somewhat dependent on riding type.  I'd worry a XR250 would have a higher area than a YZ125.  

[dyno_dave]

Wouldn't that only be relevant within a narrow band or RPM's?  Also somewhat dependent on riding type.  I'd worry a XR250 would have a higher area than a YZ125.  

I meant that as a comparison to different hardware on the same engine. I'd never worry about an XR250 ever having any power.

[Oregon Comrade]

2 hours ago, dyno_dave said:

2 hours ago, Oregon Comrade said:

Wouldn't that only be relevant within a narrow band or RPM's?  Also somewhat dependent on riding type.  I'd worry a XR250 would have a higher area than a YZ125.  

Read more  

I meant that as a comparison to different hardware on the same engine. I'd never worry about an XR250 ever having any power.

Speaking of which, totally off topic, remember when Scott Summer rode a XR250/400/600 back to back on a timed loop....they were all very close.