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Ben500RR-S

Is a FI 300 inevitable for Beta?

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11 minutes ago, eastreich said:

Sleds were doing it a little earlier than you remember!

The first production EFI sled was the Polaris 650 RXL in 1990 followed by the Arctic Cat in 1991 when they put EFI on the Wildcat which at the time were the top line sleds for each manufacturer.  EFI in sleds didn't really gain popularity until Cat started to put it on smaller sleds starting with the 550 (later punched out to 580) EXT that replaced the 530 El Tigre (just to clarify: I was riding an '89 530 back in the early '90s until I picked up my first new sled, a '95 580 Powder Special which was the non-EFI version of the 580 engine).

Polaris began using a style of transfer port injection with the introduction of the 900 big block in 2005.

It amazes me that it took so long for dirt bikes, especially when you consider that back when Arctic Cat started doing their EFI setups all of their powertrains came directly from Suzuki.

http://www.supertraxmag.com/features/polaris-indy-rxl:-the-start-of-efi/n3195

Very interesting, says that polaris got sued for stealing the efi 2 stroke design and had to pay 30 million!

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11 minutes ago, HONDA_HERO said:

http://www.supertraxmag.com/features/polaris-indy-rxl:-the-start-of-efi/n3195

Very interesting, says that polaris got sued for stealing the efi 2 stroke design and had to pay 30 million!

They all sued each other more times then you would believe. It was the wild wild west and with record breaking profits who cared!

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16 hours ago, GP said:

With the manifold injection it would be theoretically possible to run mix. With TPI its impossible as the fuel bypass the entire lower end.

Not sure why you need gasoline to lube the bottom end.

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29 minutes ago, Beta300recat said:

Not sure why you need gasoline to lube the bottom end.

Because the fuel contains the oil.  Transfer Port Injection completely bypasses the lower end, hence the need for OI.

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1 hour ago, Cullins said:

TM is going to have their first test units here in the U.S. in a couple weeks. As part of the team Ty will be doing some of the testing. Bikes to sell to the public will be here later in the year. Oil will be stored in the right side frame rail.

Personally I like the way carbed 2t’s are now. Simple, easy setup and work great. The only reason why we are getting fuel injection is for emissions, not performance. That’s why KTM doesn’t use it on their SX or XC lines. Ty is super happy with the motor on the ‘19 TM 300, but if the new FI bike works better and proves reliable he’ll be on one for Endurocross. 

As with their 4t’s I would expect Beta to be one of the last to go FI after everyone else has it worked out  

 

09D48841-C04F-4F0D-AD02-E1215788765D.png

I agree 100%.  Are you as a closed course competitor going to have the ability to map the bike as you see fit, or are you stuck with a factory map?

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On 2/6/2019 at 4:46 AM, Ben500RR-S said:

I wonder.  

I have realized that a 300 makes for a perfect snowbike for me, and would also make a great woods bike as well.  At least on the snow, when I have ridden the KTM 300 with a Smartcarb, it has had all the power I would ever need and it is really light, especially when I need to pick the bike up out of the snow.  

Is a FI/TPi inevitable for Beta? 

Yea but when? It happens when it happens. It matters only then.  I talked to a guy today who has spent about a grand dealing with his brand new ktm tpi when I asked what kind of bike he rode. It was obvious it was a tender subject and I dropped the subject. Tpi has alot more time to watch  to me  . It’s new. Just seeing whats been put up so far sucks. We were looking at 2 19’ new Shercos getting taken out of the crate. They look nice. All new bikes look nice. I went on the ktm tpi Facebook group. It’s interesting to see the different takes on the tpi bikes. It’s just still new and stuff needs to be fixed. Some guys love tpi and then there are others. I’m great with a carb and watching. 

 

 

Some other views of tpi

 

 

So some like tpi. I say wait and watch.

 

 

New Sherco below.

 

B1D71E29-2F15-4EAA-AEA2-FAAFD9CDFF9B.jpeg

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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20 hours ago, GP said:

I agree 100%.  Are you as a closed course competitor going to have the ability to map the bike as you see fit, or are you stuck with a factory map?

I don’t know what will be able to be done. Things we’ll have to find out once a bike gets here. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 12:29 PM, GP said:

Because the fuel contains the oil.  Transfer Port Injection completely bypasses the lower end, hence the need for OI.

So the OI means you don't need to pull fuel through the crank, doesn't it?

Edited by Beta300recat

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29 minutes ago, Beta300recat said:

So the OI means you don't need to pull fuel through the crank, doesn't it?

Yes, or more accurately it is required, because for emissions they need to time the injection such that it can't be pulled through or injected into the case and rely on the mechanical piston/port timing.  If you inject fuel into a throttle body as the Beta plan shows, its more like a carb and you could theoretically run mix.  

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3 hours ago, GP said:

Yes, or more accurately it is required, because for emissions they need to time the injection such that it can't be pulled through or injected into the case and rely on the mechanical piston/port timing.  If you inject fuel into a throttle body as the Beta plan shows, its more like a carb and you could theoretically run mix.  

Thanks.

Wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

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4 hours ago, GP said:

Yes, or more accurately it is required, because for emissions they need to time the injection such that it can't be pulled through or injected into the case and rely on the mechanical piston/port timing.  If you inject fuel into a throttle body as the Beta plan shows, its more like a carb and you could theoretically run mix.  

I have the impression that Beta patent injects fuel into the reed valve stream, one injector into the cylinder towards the head, the other to the crank case with the ECU deciding the events. 

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Didn't it only show the reed block injectors?  Or did I miss something?

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5 minutes ago, GP said:

Didn't it only show the reed block injectors?  Or did I miss something?

Yes, no injector(s) on a throttle body. 

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Hope if Beta goes EFI for 2 strokes they would make it so you could easily remove it and put carb of you choice in it's place and ride off. Kinda like the charcoal canisters that fell of all the 4 strokes when they had to tighten emissions.

 

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4 hours ago, BENriding said:

Hope if Beta goes EFI for 2 strokes they would make it so you could easily remove it and put carb of you choice in it's place and ride off. Kinda like the charcoal canisters that fell of all the 4 strokes when they had to tighten emissions.

 

This will never happen or at least easy to swap.

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Agree, never happen.  Beta won't even make a US spec bike.  We get a universal world model.  And I get that from a mfg. cost perspective.  TM being a lot smaller I suspect is a lot more flexible.  EFI will most certainly be a locked down system, only able to be changed with a dealer tool loading prebuilt maps, like the KTM.  No different than the 4strokes.  Be careful what you wish for you might get it.  At that point I'm hanging it up.

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It’s always been reported that Beta loves carburetors. They’ve tried to keep carbs as long as they can. So eventually Beta will have to be forced away from what they want to comply to law.... Really that’s just where we are right.. So it happens when it happens. 

I think the link works now on Betas position on carbs. 

 

 

 

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Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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From what I saw at the demo the carb is still king in my eyes. Other than govt over reach I see no real positive for the FI considering the multiple negatives ON A 2STK!  Long live the simple 2stk with a simple carb!!!

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14 hours ago, Piney Woods said:

From what I saw at the demo the carb is still king in my eyes. Other than govt over reach I see no real positive for the FI considering the multiple negatives ON A 2STK!  Long live the simple 2stk with a simple carb!!!

100% agree. 

Carb is simple and works so well on the Beta.

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