utah The new public lands bill that just passed the Senate

[BOAB]

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s47/BILLS-116s47pcs.pdf

Includes a whole bunch of new wilderness in UT.  Notice especially sec. 1231.

[mrgem]

3 hours ago, cjjeepercreeper said:

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s47/BILLS-116s47pcs.pdf

Includes a whole bunch of new wilderness in UT.  Notice especially sec. 1231.

Can you say V-E-T-O?

 

Whether you like President Trump or not (I do not) -- we have to acknowledge the fact that he's the only thing between us and the eco-mob that seems to be on their way towards turning the country into a Green Workers Paradise. 

[BOAB]

7 minutes ago, mrgem said:

Can you say V-E-T-O?

 

Whether you like President Trump or not (I do not) -- we have to acknowledge the fact that he's the only thing between us and the eco-mob that seems to be on their way towards turning the country into a Green Workers Paradise. 

He will sign it. Unfortunately the masses that know nothing get all warm and fuzzy when you mention wilderness. They have no idea how elitist a concept it is, or the catastrophic effect it has on recreation and economies. President Trump is, after all, just a big city easterner.

[mrgem]

15 hours ago, cjjeepercreeper said:

He will sign it. Unfortunately the masses that know nothing get all warm and fuzzy when you mention wilderness. They have no idea how elitist a concept it is, or the catastrophic effect it has on recreation and economies. President Trump is, after all, just a big city easterner.

I'm not so sure....Mr. Trump cut Mr. Obama's attempts to turn millions of acres (in Utah) into a reserve for the eco-elite. I expect he will resist signing this one into law. Let's face it though, coastal elites drive way too much public lands access policy -- even though they have a much smaller stake than those of us who live here. There's a reason the Founders did things like authorizing 2 senators for all states -- no matter their population. It puts those of us in less-populated states somewhat of a level playing field. 

[zzsean]

i couldn't quickly find details on what it means to us. but given that it passed 92-8 I don't see a veto even remotely likely on this. One article I saw posted on this framed it as very good for OHV in California.

Does anyone know what it realistically means for us out west?

[mrgem]

On 2/14/2019 at 9:41 AM, zzsean said:

i couldn't quickly find details on what it means to us. but given that it passed 92-8 I don't see a veto even remotely likely on this. One article I saw posted on this framed it as very good for OHV in California.

Does anyone know what it realistically means for us out west?

On 2/14/2019 at 9:41 AM, zzsean said:

i couldn't quickly find details on what it means to us. but given that it passed 92-8 I don't see a veto even remotely likely on this. One article I saw posted on this framed it as very good for OHV in California.

Does anyone know what it realistically means for us out west?

SB47 affects public lands in much of the West, including CA:

https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/09/feinstein-cook-california-desert-protection-recreation-act-off-road/2532136002/

If Mr. Trump vetoes it, it would require a 2/3 vote of both houses to override his veto. Now, that would require quite a few GOP defections by those opposed. Of interest here in CO, Sen. Michael Bennet has a proposed rider called "CORE" (Colorado Outside Recreation & Economic system Act) that is even more odious in that it substantially expands wilderness in the San Juan mountains in the SW corner of the state. 

The fact is that the House of representatives, which is Democratically controlled has gotten a number of GOPers to support the bill -- but not enough to override a presidential veto. 

 

[dmac1]

On 2/14/2019 at 9:41 AM, zzsean said:

i couldn't quickly find details on what it means to us. but given that it passed 92-8 I don't see a veto even remotely likely on this. One article I saw posted on this framed it as very good for OHV in California.

Does anyone know what it realistically means for us out west?

See the thread about the San Rafael Wilderness. That is included in the bill.  That aspect alone will create 200,000 acres of wilderness in the Swell and close about 75 miles of roads.

 

On 2/13/2019 at 4:38 PM, cjjeepercreeper said:

He will sign it. Unfortunately the masses that know nothing get all warm and fuzzy when you mention wilderness. They have no idea how elitist a concept it is, or the catastrophic effect it has on recreation and economies. President Trump is, after all, just a big city easterner.

Yeah, it first needs to go to the House, and then any differences reconciled before it goes to President Trump, but per the link below, its 95% likely to be passed into law.  You guys may wanna let your representatives know what you think about it!  I'll be doing so in just a few minutes. 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/s47

[shrubitup]

8 minutes ago, dmac1 said:

That aspect alone will create 200,000 acres of wilderness in the Swell and close about 75 miles of roads.

From the 1964 Wilderness Act: "Untouched and untrammeled by the hand of man." Seems roads in a forest would appear to be touched and trammeled by man.

[dmac1]

5 minutes ago, shrubitup said:

From the 1964 Wilderness Act: "Untouched and untrammeled by the hand of man." Seems roads in a forest would appear to be touched and trammeled by man.

You'd think!  And that was part of the basis for what I said in my letters!!  Just sent one to my representative.  Heres how to contact yours:

https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative

[BOAB]

3 hours ago, shrubitup said:

From the 1964 Wilderness Act: "Untouched and untrammeled by the hand of man." Seems roads in a forest would appear to be touched and trammeled by man.

That was amended in the late 90s under Clinton.  I will try to find the reference.

[BOAB]

Here you go.  Listen to Ed Zahniser, the son of the guy that wrote the Wilderness Act back in 1964.  This interpretation of "untrammeled" was put forth during the Roadless debacle as a "better" definition of the term.  It is now the accepted definition.

 

[shrubitup]

57 minutes ago, cjjeepercreeper said:

Here you go.  Listen to Ed Zahniser, the son of the guy that wrote the Wilderness Act back in 1964.  This interpretation of "untrammeled" was put forth during the Roadless debacle as a "better" definition of the term.  It is now the accepted definition.

So, whatever the hell we feel it should become based on our interest of an area being or becoming wild once again. ?

[mrgem]

Everyone is speculating that DJ Trump will sign. That it is a done deal. Might be wishful thinking, but I hope he doesn't. Too much garbage added to the bill.

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2019/02/26/land-bill-that-includes-feinsteins-attempts-to-protect-californias-deserts-wins-house-approval-heads-to-trumps-desk/

[dr.cornelius]

Emery county has spoken

looks like we lost 50 miles of off road trails in the swell today

check out deseret news article "Trump signs massive lands bill with Utah provisions"

[dmac1]

11 hours ago, dr.cornelius said:

Emery county has spoken

looks like we lost 50 miles of off road trails in the swell today

check out deseret news article "Trump signs massive lands bill with Utah provisions"

SUWA is likely throwing a party. Its a big step toward closing all trails in the Swell....which is exactly what they have wanted for years.

The book I'm re-reading (The Emerald Mile) has some info about the formative years of the Sierra Club. Here's a quote from its founder back in the 40s: "People often tell me not to be extreme, 'Be reasonable' they say, but I've never felt it did any good to be reasonable about anything in conservation....when it comes to saving wilderness, we cannot be extreme enough"

BTW - the book is a fantastic read if you are at all interested in true adventure tales. Its primarily about 3 guys making an historic and illegal speed run through the Grand Canyon, but along the way, it also gives you the history of the Colorado River and how, while Kenton Grua and his buddies are making their run, Bureau of Reclamation almost lost Glen Canyon Dam due to a massive melt that they weren't prepared for. Hence the HUGE releases from the dam....and the speed run in a rowed, wooden dory, through absolutely huge rapids.

Edited March 13, 2019 by dmac1

[TGP]

2 hours ago, dmac1 said:

SUWA is likely throwing a party. Its a big step toward closing all trails in the Swell....which is exactly what they have wanted for years.

The book I'm re-reading (The Emerald Mile) has some info about the formative years of the Sierra Club. Here's a quote from its founder back in the 40s: "People often tell me not to be extreme, 'Be reasonable' they say, but I've never felt it did any good to be reasonable about anything in conservation....when it comes to saving wilderness, we cannot be extreme enough"

 

I’ve said thay for years being on the other side of the fence...for 30 years I watched environmental whackos/EF/Forrest Guardians/Sierra Clubbers/ et al do stuff like spike trees, booby trap trails, chain gates...you name it...and NOTHING happens, yet thhey win in the legal system and the court of public opinion all the time...yet the “non-PC users” like us and our organizations are always being told and preaching the mantra of “play nice, treat the reasonably, don’t do anything that reflects badly on Motorized use...” even some people on this site are horrified at the thought of playing their game...but it’s the only way to historically win against them is to get in the weeds and play the game they way THEY play it

[dmac1]

19 minutes ago, TeamGreenPilot said:

I’ve said thay for years being on the other side of the fence...for 30 years I watched environmental whackos/EF/Forrest Guardians/Sierra Clubbers/ et al do stuff like spike trees, booby trap trails, chain gates...you name it...and NOTHING happens, yet thhey win in the legal system and the court of public opinion all the time...yet the “non-PC users” like us and our organizations are always being told and preaching the mantra of “play nice, treat the reasonably, don’t do anything that reflects badly on Motorized use...” even some people on this site are horrified at the thought of playing their game...but it’s the only way to historically win against them is to get in the weeds and play the game they way THEY play it

I hear ya...I've been on the access thing since the 80s and seen it too. Not always for moto, but its the same fight. 'We' compromise in legal battles all the time...we are slowing down the inevitable and its far better than allowing them to run roughshod over us, but its still not good....especially when we keep losing access to terrain in favor of other user groups.

The other thing he said...."what you give away will never come back---ever!". 

I think the end of playing nice has, at least partly, arrived. At least it has in the RWD issue cuz we are suing the FS due to their BS position. And I bet we will sue in the PSI issue too if we get an unfavorable ruling. Those are just 2 issues in our region, but they are both big.

Other than not laying down when we get ruled against, and not compromising in our dealings along the way, about all I can think of that some might do at some point (i.e. when we are locked out) is monkey wrench. Eventually it'll prolly come to that (e.g. cutting gates/chains/etc).

[kxlubber]

We did a cross country trip a few years back in a VW camper and I had this App on my phone that I actually had to use a couple times, The Vanagon Rescue Squad. It would tell by your location how far you were from others in the VW Family that would help you when you broke down. Just text( not fancy) phone#, Distance, and a Sentence or two about what they had to offer. (Field , Barn, Lift, Parts vehicle, etc).
If you could make a similar App that listed gas, food, hotel, etc for bikers traveling a trail like COBDR it would be a great way to gather a list of businesses that benefit directly from the sport. I know this threads about Utah, COBDR seems like a easy start for a platform.

[BOAB]

23 hours ago, TeamGreenPilot said:

I’ve said thay for years being on the other side of the fence...for 30 years I watched environmental whackos/EF/Forrest Guardians/Sierra Clubbers/ et al do stuff like spike trees, booby trap trails, chain gates...you name it...and NOTHING happens, yet thhey win in the legal system and the court of public opinion all the time...yet the “non-PC users” like us and our organizations are always being told and preaching the mantra of “play nice, treat the reasonably, don’t do anything that reflects badly on Motorized use...” even some people on this site are horrified at the thought of playing their game...but it’s the only way to historically win against them is to get in the weeds and play the game they way THEY play it

When you get down and dirty with them be prepared to pay the price. When I was in the thick of the fight a number of years ago I used to get death threats. SUWA, TWS, and Forest Guardians are the ones I clashed most frequently with. SC is much more political, they don't get in the dirt like some of the others. One of the worst used to be Earth First!, but they had a habit of getting arrested and are not the force they once were, they used to be the eco nazi version of Antifa.

Yes, to win, we have to play their game, but be prepared for the underhanded tactics and to get bled dry financially. Happened to the SWFWDA back in the early 2000s in the Robledo Mtns fight, and from all appearances it may be happening to BRC.

Edited March 14, 2019 by cjjeepercreeper

[dmac1]

When you get down and dirty with them be prepared to pay the price. When I was in the thick of the fight a number of years ago I used to get death threats. SUWA, TWS, and Forest Guardians are the ones I clashed most frequently with. SC is much more political, they don't get in the dirt like some of the others. One of the worst used to be Earth First!, but they had a habit of getting arrested and are not the force they once were, they used to be the eco nazi version of Antifa.
Yes, to win, we have to play their game, but be prepared for the underhanded tactics and to get bled dry financially. Happened to the SWFWDA back in the early 2000s in the Robledo Mtns fight, and from all appearances it may be happening to BRC.

Whats SWFWDA?

Death threats....WOW!! That'll make ya think about what you're doing huh? From earth first fanatics I'd guess.