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701 Countershaft seal leaking from new.

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30 minutes ago, voip kam said:

I just fixed my countershaft leak; not leaking after 180 miles post repair.  I'll give you the skinny.  Make sure your chain has proper tension.  Somehow make sure dealer didn't put more than 1.7 liter oil.  Make sure your countershaft nut is properly torque to 80 Nm.   Make sure the seal is flush with the engine case.   If all those seem fine, then you may to read my post on AVRider.  I took Dan Babcock's advice ( above in this thread ) and changed the rubber O ring and spacer ( race ).  Both items were the new upgraded part number.  That seem to solve my minute oil weep when bike was running on the road.  I used the new thicker and smaller O ring ( part no. 0770020220 ).  I also used the newly designed spacer ( race ) part no. 76633030012.   The spacer came with the updated kit part no. 00050000993.

You might want your dealer to reads both threads and order the new parts now.  Most of the threads I have read point to O ring replacement.  I am pretty sure the new spacer design seats the O ring better.  I doubt the problem is the seal itself.  

Oh, make sure your chain is absolutely clean.  Also the countershaft area.  You want to make sure you're not confusing  melted chain lube vs. engine oil.  When you clean the chain spotless, don't use conventional lube.  Use a minute amount of some fling free chain was like Dupont Chain Wax.  Makes it easier to tell if the fix is holding. 

Let me now ( us ) what worked for you.   A big shout out and thanks to Dan Babcock for his post in this thread.  Merci. 

Thanks for the tips! I'll check the torque of the sprocket later today. I don't have a chain alignment tool(on order) as my past motorcycle had a single sided swing arm. Also don't have a spool stand yet, but it's on the way. The chain definitely does feel slacker than the 30mm recommended by the sticker under my seat. I normally use Maxima Chain Wax which has served me well, but I'm still on the sticky, mucky, hard to get off lube the mechanics put waaay too much of. Looks like there is more than 1.7 liters of oil judging by the sight glass. I suppose I can slowly let some out to get the level on the center of the glass. But I'll do that when my oil change kit comes in.

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1 hour ago, almazing said:

Thanks for the tips! I'll check the torque of the sprocket later today. I don't have a chain alignment tool(on order) as my past motorcycle had a single sided swing arm. Also don't have a spool stand yet, but it's on the way. The chain definitely does feel slacker than the 30mm recommended by the sticker under my seat. I normally use Maxima Chain Wax which has served me well, but I'm still on the sticky, mucky, hard to get off lube the mechanics put waaay too much of. Looks like there is more than 1.7 liters of oil judging by the sight glass. I suppose I can slowly let some out to get the level on the center of the glass. But I'll do that when my oil change kit comes in.

Sorry I meant change sag.  No tools required for checking chain sag.  Just go to manual.  You need to be within 5mm. of bottom of lower swing arm.  Measured I think 30 mm. towards rear from plastic chain guide.  The diagram in Owner's Manual is confusing.  The potential problem with countershaft can arise if chain is too tight.

I use chain cleaner to get chain nice and clean.  I too was using Maxima Chain Wax ( synthetic ).  But, I stopped using it till I could isolate why my countershaft area was too dirty, gritty , and oily.  Especially behind the front sprocket.  You can see my before and after cleaning up CS area.

I did same with oil.  I opened the drain plug and let some out in measuring cup; without pulling plug all the way out.  According to the Owner's Manual, the amount of in between the Orange Min. and Max ( bullseye ) in sight glass is 0.3 liters.  Don't quote me.

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Posted (edited)

@almazing

Good to see you on here as well.  You've already gotten good advice on running the chain loose, and making sure the oil is not overfilled.  Mine was overfilled as new, and after the first service at the dealer, so it is common.  Make sure the level is within the range on the sight glass.  I used a hose and suction to siphon oil out from the fill hole rather than from the drain; much easier to do it accurately that way.

The only items I would add are related to the point on the oil level...  Excess crankcase pressure can cause leaking at the countershaft, which is why you don't want the oil level too high.  At the same time, consider that there are other factors that impact crankcase pressure as well.  For example, make sure the crankcase is venting properly (no kinks or pinches in the vent tube).  Also, crankcase pressure should go down as the engine breaks in and the piston ring sealing improves (means less blowby); accordingly I would not rush to have the dealer change the countershaft seal until the engine is well and truly broken in.  Some people have had the seal changed multiple times in the first several hundred miles, while others have noticed that the leak goes away on its own over time with more miles.

-R

Edited by RDA71

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23 hours ago, almazing said:

Hi all. New here. Just got my 2019 SMC R and I put in about 260 miles so far. Looks like I'm leaking oil in the countershaft area as well. I noticed oil drippings in my garage and I really really hoped my bike wouldn't be affected by it, but alas, it is. I suppose I'll ride it until the break in maintenance and have the dealer address this issue. I'm sure they'll tell me that it's a new bike and it'll need to 'settle' and 'break-in'. 

Anyway, I notice the leakage only happens right after the bike has been running and being ridden. When it's cold sitting in the garage, no leaks. Even overnight. I let the bike idle for about 15 mins yesterday and no leaks while idling. After a ride, I noticed that it has been leaking some oil. Not a lot, but it's still troublesome. I'll ride it to 620 miles and then take it to the dealer. Unless it gets worse and in which case, I'll take it in earlier.

 

be diligent and do yourself a favor, if when they replace the seal and if the repair does not work. Call KTM directly and get them on it FAST. they will drag feet on it so keep them held to the fire. this is a known issue and you will receive better service if you involve KTM in combo with your dealer. i have been battling with my leak threw 3000 miles , 7 oil seal changes and an entire set of new engine cases (ktm had to install) i still get very minor oil weep. KTM says its "assembly lube" from the recent case install. after 400 miles tho id suspect the assembly lube to be gone..

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Thanks for the tips guys. My chain is pretty slack. Well I guess that's a relative term. I've been riding street bikes for so long and used to tighter chain tension. This is my first SM, dual-sport, dirt-ish designed bike.  I checked the torque on my front sprocket and made sure it was 80nm with my torque wrench. Now I'm going to be cleaning the chain lube off and putting on Maxima Chain Wax. At some point, I'll also check the oil level. 

It's hard to tell if it's melted chain lube or actual oil, TBH. When it's hot, the chain lube appears to have the same consistency as oil. 

Not sure what oil viscosity the bike comes with from the factory, but I'll be putting in 10W60 instead of 10W50. 

 

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1 hour ago, almazing said:

Thanks for the tips guys. My chain is pretty slack. Well I guess that's a relative term. I've been riding street bikes for so long and used to tighter chain tension. This is my first SM, dual-sport, dirt-ish designed bike.  I checked the torque on my front sprocket and made sure it was 80nm with my torque wrench. Now I'm going to be cleaning the chain lube off and putting on Maxima Chain Wax. At some point, I'll also check the oil level. 

It's hard to tell if it's melted chain lube or actual oil, TBH. When it's hot, the chain lube appears to have the same consistency as oil. 

Not sure what oil viscosity the bike comes with from the factory, but I'll be putting in 10W60 instead of 10W50. 

 

best thing to do for test purposes is clean the chain well and remove what gunk you can. clean case area well. and then go for a ride (yes the chain is not fully oiled) go for a ride 30-40 miles.  check again. chain oil will also get tacky when cooled compared to engine oil, also if it was purely chain oil you would expect dirt/grime with it and you would see quite a bit of little crud chunks dispersed in the moist areas of case. 

i wish you the best and hope its a quick and easy solution. cheers  

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Hey everyone, 

I've got a 2020 KTM 690 SMC R and I've been having this issue as well as others. I've already had to replace the clutch slave cylinder and the countershaft seal right around my first service. The dealer used the new kit ending in 993 and it seems almost as if it's leaking more now. 

The issue is I can't currently tell if it is still the countershaft sprocket or something else. I'm sitting at 840 miles and the last few rides there has been oil collecting on the left hand side of my skid plate. 

I absolutely love the bike, but these issues are making me regret all the parts I bought for it! I have an O-ring on order since it had already been updated with the new seal kit by the dealer.  I'm close to just trading it in for a DRZ. 

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In my case, it's not chain lube being melted and trickling down. Chain has been completely degreased. Rode it for quite a bit. And noticed a slow oil leak. It's a very, very slow leak, and it appears to be slowing down. I haven't found droplets of oil on my garage floor for days now, so I'm guessing it's starting to 'break-in' and 'seal'.

I don't do a baby break-in, nor do I run it like I stole it. I merely ride it as I normally would. Cruise when I need to, and demand power when I need/want it, to include kissing the redline on occasion, since there's not tach on this bike. Still learning when to shift though. Ride it like you normally would. It makes no sense to me to subject an engine to non-normal operating conditions for a few hundred miles, and then ride it normally. Seems like it'd do more harm than good. Always 'broke-in' my bikes and cars this way. Never had an issue. Ever.

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/busting-engine-break-in-myth/

One thing I have yet to do is remove oil from the crank case. My oil change kit from AOMC has not shipped yet for some god-awful reason, even though they have the parts in stock. My crank case clearly has too much oil. I will be switching to 10w60 on my next oil change. And measure exactly 1.6-1.7 liters to put in. A thicker oil should help alleviate the slow leakage. 

Since the leak is so slow, I don't really wanna jump the gun and have the dealer take it apart, dealing with the bike being in and out of the shop for warranty. I'll bring it to their attention during the first service so they can take a note of it. After say, 3000-ish miles or the 2nd oil change, and it's still leaking or getting worse, I'll bring it in. This way, they can't just use 'the engine isn't completely broken in yet' excuse.

Plus a slow oil leak isn't a danger or deal breaker. I can still ride the bike and have fun. Still, it sucks that KTM isn't really addressing this like they should. But things could be a lot worse.

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2 hours ago, Roboplata said:

Hey everyone, 

I've got a 2020 KTM 690 SMC R and I've been having this issue as well as others. I've already had to replace the clutch slave cylinder and the countershaft seal right around my first service. The dealer used the new kit ending in 993 and it seems almost as if it's leaking more now. 

The issue is I can't currently tell if it is still the countershaft sprocket or something else. I'm sitting at 840 miles and the last few rides there has been oil collecting on the left hand side of my skid plate. 

I absolutely love the bike, but these issues are making me regret all the parts I bought for it! I have an O-ring on order since it had already been updated with the new seal kit by the dealer.  I'm close to just trading it in for a DRZ. 

My first recommendation is to establish a clean canvas.  You need to clean the chain of all chain wax/lube.  This will eliminate chain fling, which can provide source of false positive leak...no pun intended.  A lot of people get chain fling confused with leak.  As I posted, you can try something like Dupont Chain Wax , which doesn't fling once dry.   Then you need to clean the entire area around clutch slave cylinder and countershaft.  You can use brake cleaner and rag.  Once clean, you can trace the trail of oil leak.  I am assuming you already checked for tight chain.  

 

If you're not mechanically inclined and dealer is doing work, you need to find our which spacer design and which O ring they installed.  Unless you verified it prior to install, you may have to take them out again.  I posted detail description and photos.  For me the combination of the thicker & smaller O ring with the new spacer design did the trick.

 

Good luck.

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1 hour ago, almazing said:

One thing I have yet to do is remove oil from the crank case.

Pull some oil out to get the level visible in the sight window.  If the leak is really slow, and only when riding (not accumulating when sitting overnight for example), setting the oil level correctly may fix it.  Just stick a clean hose of some type (fuel line, whatever you have) down the fill hole and use a bulb (or your mouth if you are adventurous) to syphon some oil out.  Easy and should only take a few minutes.  Way easier than trying to let out a small amount from the drain plug.

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3 hours ago, RDA71 said:

Pull some oil out to get the level visible in the sight window.  If the leak is really slow, and only when riding (not accumulating when sitting overnight for example), setting the oil level correctly may fix it.  Just stick a clean hose of some type (fuel line, whatever you have) down the fill hole and use a bulb (or your mouth if you are adventurous) to syphon some oil out.  Easy and should only take a few minutes.  Way easier than trying to let out a small amount from the drain plug.

Yea I might just do that. I have a syringe or a turkey baster and a hose somewhere. Hopefully this fixes it. 

Edit: Took out about .25 liters of oil out. It's within the middle-ish of the sight window right now. It wouldn't surprise me if the tech that prepped the bike put an entire 2 liters in the crank case. Not holding my breath that this'll stop the leak, but I(and everyone else having this issue) should pursue all avenues before taking it to the dealer. I'll have to ride it for a prolonged period and observe.

Edited by almazing

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20 hours ago, voip kam said:

My first recommendation is to establish a clean canvas.  You need to clean the chain of all chain wax/lube.  This will eliminate chain fling, which can provide source of false positive leak...no pun intended.  A lot of people get chain fling confused with leak.  As I posted, you can try something like Dupont Chain Wax , which doesn't fling once dry.   Then you need to clean the entire area around clutch slave cylinder and countershaft.  You can use brake cleaner and rag.  Once clean, you can trace the trail of oil leak.  I am assuming you already checked for tight chain.  

 

If you're not mechanically inclined and dealer is doing work, you need to find our which spacer design and which O ring they installed.  Unless you verified it prior to install, you may have to take them out again.  I posted detail description and photos.  For me the combination of the thicker & smaller O ring with the new spacer design did the trick.

 

Good luck.

Thank you,

 

I've been reading through your posts. I can definitely confirm that it isn't chain wax/lube. I've isolated it to two areas. A small weep from the countershaft seal and a bit more from the clutch slave.

I had to replace the slave with an Oberon unit, and I'm suspecting that I've torn the rubber boot, which is allowing the oil that comes through the weep hole on the push rod to escape. If I'm not mistaken it is designed to weep oil to lubricate the seal since it uses a rubber as opposed to a cast housing now. Talking to someone else, they mentioned that they had leaks from there when they used the gasket Oberon provided, so I've ordered an OEM gasket as well.

My new O-ring for the countershaft seal should be here by Friday if all goes well and I'll be spending the weekend re-doing the slave and countershaft seal.

Chain tightness seems fine, but I can confirm that the dealer overfilled the crankcase, which is probably contributing to my clutch slave oil leak as well.

Edited by Roboplata
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For those that need to "see" their leak a bit better, clean & dry the whole area as best you can, then "dust" some talc powder all over the area. The oil will find the talc dust and you'll be able to see the oil leak, no matter how subtle. 

Be sure you don't breathe the talc dust. It's almost as bad as COVID-19...

Well, actually, it's the same. It just takes longer...

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7 hours ago, Roboplata said:

.... Talking to someone else, they mentioned that they had leaks from there when they used the gasket Oberon provided, so I've ordered an OEM gasket as well...

Did the Oberon slave come with both a flat gasket and a O-ring to seal the unit to the motor?  Rekluse slaves come with both, they designed/machined the slave with an O-ring relief.

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47 minutes ago, zibbit u2 said:

Did the Oberon slave come with both a flat gasket and a O-ring to seal the unit to the motor?  Rekluse slaves come with both, they designed/machined the slave with an O-ring relief.

I just installed an Oberon SC yesterday and I can say with certainty is that the Oberon SC doesn't come with an O-ring. Nor does it have a machined relief for an O-ring. It does come with what appears to be a stock green flat gasket. Instruction state that the SC comes pre-assembled, ready to install as is. And nowhere in the instructions does it state to take the O-ring from the stock SC and place it in the Oberon unit.

That being said, tolerances are much tighter than stock.

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1 hour ago, zibbit u2 said:

Did the Oberon slave come with both a flat gasket and a O-ring to seal the unit to the motor?  Rekluse slaves come with both, they designed/machined the slave with an O-ring relief.

@almazing hit the nail on the head. 

The Oberon slave used to be just a flat face, but the new design uses a rubber seal similar to the Magura and just comes with the gasket. I don't think there'd be room for an O-ring. 

My thinking is if that boot gets damaged, then oil can leak out of it. But I digress, I don't want to hijack the thread.

I did pull out roughly 1/2 liter of excess oil from the crankcase today to ensure I'm within the sight gauge. My hope is that it was overfilled and the pressure was causing it to weep. 

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