advice, my new and first SM, 07, modded, head gasket blew after 2 weeks, advice please....thanks!

[Atolduso]

5 minutes ago, dual sport seattle said:

Does it matter if I buy the stage 2 hotcams, intake and exhaust separately, from 2 different sellers?  Or do I need to buy the pair together in same package?

No problem

[durielk]

If you take the barrels off, I would add all the base gaskets back in.  Forget about the Hcompression, if you start blowing head gaskets, you'll be into that motor every weekend.

[dual sport seattle]

Just now, durielk said:

If you take the barrels off, I would add all the base gaskets back in.  Forget about the Hcompression, if you start blowing head gaskets, you'll be into that motor every weekend.

At this point, I am planning on removing head and getting it machined, found local machine shop $80.  I am hoping the cylinder is ok, I don't know about pulling that off and having to source matching rings and installing them.    So the head gasket kit comes with 3 and you remove the holder pins and take out middle gasket and use the other 2 gaskets, thicker is better for sealing the head gasket?  makes sense.   I ordered the stage 2 hotcams just now!  intake and exhaust.  I figure that will be my upgrade reward for dealing with this, ha,  so that should make up more power than any Hcompression gasketing that may have been done before.  If the compression goes down a little bit, but the head gasket lasts, that's a good trade sounds like.   I will try and use a level to see if cylinder is flat.  Do you think 2 gaskets and machined head will be ok without machining cylinder?  That's sort of what I am stuck on in my plan here.

[SC_lurker]

To sum up previous advice, your head gasket is one part. There is no separating it. It goes between the cylinder head, and the cylinder. The head is the part with holes for your intake and exhaust. Also has cams. I also strongly recommend cometic 94mm big bore gasket here. Torque your head bolts to 43 lb ft. most recommend to reuse Suzuki steel washers as apposed to any in a kit.

The base gasket on an S and as supplied with many big bore kits is 3 parts. 2 gaskets above and below a metal spacer. This goes between the bottom of the cylinder and the case. Your piston and rod are exposed above the case when the jug or cylinder is removed. If you seperate the 3 parts of this gasket and use only the top or bottom, not middle metal, you raise compression to E specification. You will have to cut off rivets or buy an E base gasket.

I used a no name (caltric) eBay 94 mm cylinder ($100) with a forged Vertex 23533c piston I scored new on amazon for $30. It was a gamble but I used cometic gaskets and it’s been good. Ring gap with the c piston was a few thousandths tight but it’s running great and oil consumption with Rotella t6 is nill. I also installed new wiseco valves, seals and hotcams. Old school hot cams 2003 intake and exhaust, not currently available, a little more lift than stage 2. No auto decompression start. Fcr 39 and full fmf pipe previously. The increase from cams and BBK is very noticeable.

Edited March 29, 2019 by SC_lurker

[Atolduso]

1 hour ago, SC_lurker said:

To sum up previous advice, your head gasket is one part. There is no separating it. It goes between the cylinder head, and the cylinder. The head is the part with holes for your intake and exhaust. Also has cams. I also strongly recommend cometic 94mm big bore gasket here. Torque your head bolts to 43 lb ft. most recommend to reuse Suzuki steel washers as apposed to any in a kit.

The base gasket on an S and as supplied with many big bore kits is 3 parts. 2 gaskets above and below a metal spacer. This goes between the bottom of the cylinder and the case. Your piston and rod are exposed above the case when the jug or cylinder is removed. If you seperate the 3 parts of this gasket and use only the top or bottom, not middle metal, you raise compression to E specification. You will have to cut off rivets or buy an E base gasket.

I used a no name (caltric) eBay 94 mm cylinder ($100) with a forged Vertex 23533c piston I scored new on amazon for $30. It was a gamble but I used cometic gaskets and it’s been good. Ring gap with the c piston was a few thousandths tight but it’s running great and oil consumption with Rotella t6 is nill. I also installed new wiseco valves, seals and hotcams. Old school hot cams 2003 intake and exhaust, not currently available, a little more lift than stage 2. No auto decompression start. Fcr 39 and full fmf pipe previously. The increase from cams and BBK is very noticeable.

How did you properly size the jug for the piston you bought? It just worked out that you had the right piston clearance?

[hinksy]

3 hours ago, dual sport seattle said:

Does it matter if I buy the stage 2 hotcams, intake and exhaust separately, from 2 different sellers?  Or do I need to buy the pair together in same package?

No it doesnt , you can fit them anytime and in any order you want

[dual sport seattle]

Hello, thanks for all the replys.    So.... got the cams out, almost was finished removing head, until...... oh no,  these little bolts were barely rounded, so my 8mm wrench, round end, didn't catch edges.  Put the PB blaster on them, using large vise grips, got the right one loose, but the left one is just chipping off and won't budge.  I put a little heat on it, not very much though, didn't work, and now I am asking what I should do here.  Thanks,

[dual sport seattle]

Just now, dual sport seattle said:

Hello, thanks for all the replys.    So.... got the cams out, almost was finished removing head, until...... oh no,  these little bolts were barely rounded, so my 8mm wrench, round end, didn't catch edges.  Put the PB blaster on them, using large vise grips, got the right one loose, but the left one is just chipping off and won't budge.  I put a little heat on it, not very much though, didn't work, and now I am asking what I should do here.  Thanks,

I am heading to harbor freight, (don't be hatin')    for bolt extractor sockets, hopefully the metric will do it and I don't need to buy standard to get the slightly smaller 5/16.  Something like that.

  A couple you tube vids show em in action, worth a shot.

   https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=9+Pc+3%2f8+in.+Drive+Metric+Bolt+Extractor+Socket+Set+youtube+review+harbor+freight&view=detail&mid=FB9D1B7CFCF065EAB5A8FB9D1B7CFCF065EAB5A8&FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=9+Pc+3%2f8+in.+Drive+Metric+Bolt+Extractor+Socket+Set+youtube+review+harbor+freight&view=detail&mid=FB0454DDAA9B270B8B95FB0454DDAA9B270B8B95&FORM=VIRE

 

[Barry Ries]

45 minutes ago, dual sport seattle said:

I am heading to harbor freight, (don't be hatin')    for bolt extractor sockets, hopefully the metric will do it and I don't need to buy standard to get the slightly smaller 5/16.  Something like that.

  A couple you tube vids show em in action, worth a shot.

   https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=9+Pc+3%2f8+in.+Drive+Metric+Bolt+Extractor+Socket+Set+youtube+review+harbor+freight&view=detail&mid=FB9D1B7CFCF065EAB5A8FB9D1B7CFCF065EAB5A8&FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=9+Pc+3%2f8+in.+Drive+Metric+Bolt+Extractor+Socket+Set+youtube+review+harbor+freight&view=detail&mid=FB0454DDAA9B270B8B95FB0454DDAA9B270B8B95&FORM=VIRE

 

  Get some 6 point sockets,  you will be glad to have them for many years to come.    Smacking a bolt straight down with a drift and a big hammer will often loosen them up a bit.  

[dual sport seattle]

1 hour ago, Barry Ries said:

  Get some 6 point sockets,  you will be glad to have them for many years to come.    Smacking a bolt straight down with a drift and a big hammer will often loosen them up a bit.  

Thank you.  Pretty good chance if I had those that would have worked initially.   Well, I got the harbor freight bolt extractor sockets, and hot dang, worked immediately lickity split.   $25 dollars though, but they will get used again no doubt

https://www.harborfreight.com/9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-67894.html

 

[ohiodrz400sm]

Thank you.  Pretty good chance if I had those that would have worked initially.   Well, I got the harbor freight bolt extractor sockets, and hot dang, worked immediately lickity split.   $25 dollars though, but they will get used again no doubt
https://www.harborfreight.com/9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-67894.html
 

Did you find those bolts were overly tightened or just rounded? They aren't supposed to be very tight.


Make sure when this goes back together you pay attention to the head gasket rivets. Chances are you will have to remove at least 1 of them. I know I already mentioned this but it's worth mentioning again.

[dual sport seattle]

Ok yaah, I removed the head.  Few questions.  I wasn't sure about removing the valves, or shims?  Also, the top of the piston looks a little funky?  And the spark plug looks old.   AND.... is the head gasket supposed to be a single metal gasket?  It sure seems like a silver flexible but mostly rigid metal gasket.   Pics

[dual sport seattle]

Valves and shims still in head, was planning on taking head to get machined flat, what should I remove from it?  coolant hose I know, ha

[dual sport seattle]

Top of piston in cylinder after head being removed.

Old looking spark plug, for sure replace this, NGK?

[dual sport seattle]

Just now, ohiodrz400sm said:

Did you find those bolts were overly tightened or just rounded? They aren't supposed to be very tight.


Make sure when this goes back together you pay attention to the head gasket rivets. Chances are you will have to remove at least 1 of them. I know I already mentioned this but it's worth mentioning again.

The little side bolts on right exterior side of cylinder were extremely tight.  So were the allen bolts holding on the pieces that hold down the cam, but they were all the same, probably seemed tight because I was just using a little L shaped allen wrench.  I just picked up the 3/8" allen wrech socket things so I can use a torque wrench to re-install.

      I will need to clarify what you mean when I get the gaskets and look at them.  The gasket I removed isn't what I was expecting.

[ohiodrz400sm]

The little side bolts on right exterior side of cylinder were extremely tight.  So were the allen bolts holding on the pieces that hold down the cam, but they were all the same, probably seemed tight because I was just using a little L shaped allen wrench.  I just picked up the 3/8" allen wrech socket things so I can use a torque wrench to re-install.
      I will need to clarify what you mean when I get the gaskets and look at them.  The gasket I removed isn't what I was expecting.

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1255383-cylinder-head-gasket-fitment/

[SC_lurker]

20 hours ago, Atolduso said:

How did you properly size the jug for the piston you bought? It just worked out that you had the right piston clearance?

The 94mm caltric cylinder was a pretty decently machined piece. Their eBay reply person said it’s nikasil coated before I ordered. I had ordered the vertex piston months earlier.

I don’t have measurement tools to measure the piston to bore difference. The piston was not binding and moved up and down in the bore fine. About the same as my perception of the stock Suzuki parts I removed. I checked ring gap an inch into the bore. A little snug. Used it as is. The vertex difference in piston size is .01 mm per a,b,c,d option. A human hair is like .05mm. Vertex c is 93.97 if memory is correct.

I’ll have it all apart at some point sooner than later for the +4mm crank and see how it’s fared.

[dual sport seattle]

oh oh, I noticed now that there are only 2 of the little round peg things that keep head in place to cylinder.  I wasn't paying great attention to them at all when removing head.  I have looked all around and down in engine.   Now either there are supposed to be four and I lost 2 of them, or there are only supposed to be 2, or it was installed with 2.  I don't know.

[dual sport seattle]

  It would be great at this point to just put in new gasket and stage 2 hotcams I ordered and put it all back together.  Not sure how I will do removing all the stuff from head to get it machined. 

[SC_lurker]

2 minutes ago, dual sport seattle said:

oh oh, I noticed now that there are only 2 of the little round peg things that keep head in place to cylinder.  I wasn't paying great attention to them at all when removing head.  I have looked all around and down in engine.   Now either there are supposed to be four and I lost 2 of them, or there are only supposed to be 2, or it was installed with 2.  I don't know.

There are only 2 of them