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Ethanol free fuel and octane

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I have a 19 Husky TE300i that i have been running on straight pump gas (93).  To my knowledge, it is likely 10% ethanol.  I'd like to try some Ethanol free, i hear there may be a small performance gain as ethanol doesn't carry as much energy as gasoline.  In any case it will last longer in the tank, not gather water, easier on seals, etc.  I am only able to source 89 octane ethanol free locally.  Will these be enough octane for my bike?  My manual calls for ROZ/RON 95; PON 91.   I believe US pumps state the octane in PON, so the manual is essentially calling for 91.

I also toyed with the idea of race gas, but cost goes up a lot and availability goes down.

My bike is bone stock btw, standard head, etc.  

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E10 contains about 96% of the energy that pure gasoline does.  You won't notice a difference in performance or fuel economy.

E85 is actually great fuel for high performance applications, you just use a lot more of it than you would gasoline. 

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11 minutes ago, turbo dan said:

E10 contains about 96% of the energy that pure gasoline does.  You won't notice a difference in performance or fuel economy.

E85 is actually great fuel for high performance applications, you just use a lot more of it than you would gasoline. 

Ha, yeah i've heard about E85, thought about it for my WRX but its a daily... :)  

 

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89 is probably fine unless someone has specific experience on that bike and had gotten detention. I get 87-90 non-ethanol locally and mix in some vp 110 race gas to get the octane up to about 93-95. I don't think it's really necessary but it makes me feel good and the exhaust smell nice. 

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I just hate the summer/winter blend crap and all the additives along with ethanol in California gas. I just want a consistent fuel for my bikes. It is really bad in my older bikes. It's hell on old fuel lines too.

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My Gas Gas trials bike has a plastic tank that swells up with ethanol fuel.  So I run REC90 ethanol free gas plus some 112 octane race gas to bump up the octane because they'll knock on 90 octane.  Honestly though I think the bike runs better on 93 w/10% ethanol.  It feels snappy on the 93 w/ethanol and lazy on the REC90/Race gas.  

Ethanol has less energy but it brings oxygen.  It's easy to get fuel into the cylinder and hard to get oxygen in.  So anything that brings oxygen in is a good thing.  I used to race karts and we ran the motors on straight methanol.  While it has less energy than gas, it brings a lot of oxygen.  Stoich for methanol is like 6:1 compared to 13:1 for gas.  So when we jetted for 6:1 we were burning much more methanol which more than offset the lower energy content and we end up making more horsepower.

Anyway I didn't want to derail this into a technical discussion.  But I just wanted to say in a two stroke 250, I find that 93 octane with 10% ethanol feels snappier than non-ethanol to me.  But unfortunately for me, that bike can't run it because the manufacturer didn't design it to handle the ethanol.

Doc

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5 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

My Gas Gas trials bike has a plastic tank that swells up with ethanol fuel.  So I run REC90 ethanol free gas plus some 112 octane race gas to bump up the octane because they'll knock on 90 octane.  Honestly though I think the bike runs better on 93 w/10% ethanol.  It feels snappy on the 93 w/ethanol and lazy on the REC90/Race gas.  

Ethanol has less energy but it brings oxygen.  It's easy to get fuel into the cylinder and hard to get oxygen in.  So anything that brings oxygen in is a good thing.  I used to race karts and we ran the motors on straight methanol.  While it has less energy than gas, it brings a lot of oxygen.  Stoich for methanol is like 6:1 compared to 13:1 for gas.  So when we jetted for 6:1 we were burning much more methanol which more than offset the lower energy content and we end up making more horsepower.

Anyway I didn't want to derail this into a technical discussion.  But I just wanted to say in a two stroke 250, I find that 93 octane with 10% ethanol feels snappier than non-ethanol to me.  But unfortunately for me, that bike can't run it because the manufacturer didn't design it to handle the ethanol.

Doc

You can get oxygenated or non-oxygenated race gas as well. Now that you mention it when I switched from mixing VPR into my pump non-ethanol to VP 110 I felt like there is a little hesitation off idle and wasn't sure where it was coming from as nothing else had changed. Just checked the VP site and VPR is oxygenated where VP 110 is not, so I wonder if that could be the difference. 

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I’d never run ethanol. Why would you? Sure performance race cars use it, but that’s different. Ethanol get put in zero of anything I have with a engine minus newer cars. I mean anything. 

You will see some performance uptick with VP fuel.

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2 minutes ago, Rooster73 said:

I’d never run ethanol. Why would you? Sure performance race cars use it, but that’s different. Ethanol get put in zero of anything I have with a engine minus newer cars. I mean anything. 

You will see some performance uptick with VP fuel.

Every pump here is 10% ethanol now with the exception of REC90 which is very rare.  Race gas costs $12 - $13 per gallon and contains some nasty stuff (Tetraethyl Lead).   Manufacturers are now building bikes to tolerate the ethanol well.   So it comes down to cost and convenience.   I've had zero issues running 10% ethanol in my '16 KTM.  However I run REC90 / race gas in my Gas Gas because it wasn't designed to handle the ethanol.

But I totally get the ethanol hate because it was forced on us and did damage to a lot of older equipment, bikes, etc.

Doc   

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41 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

Every pump here is 10% ethanol now with the exception of REC90 which is very rare.  Race gas costs $12 - $13 per gallon and contains some nasty stuff (Tetraethyl Lead).   Manufacturers are now building bikes to tolerate the ethanol well.   So it comes down to cost and convenience.   I've had zero issues running 10% ethanol in my '16 KTM.  However I run REC90 / race gas in my Gas Gas because it wasn't designed to handle the ethanol.

But I totally get the ethanol hate because it was forced on us and did damage to a lot of older equipment, bikes, etc.

Doc   

We are lucky in Idaho. I bet 50-60% of the stations have ethanol free. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Rooster73 said:

We are lucky in Idaho. I bet 50-60% of the stations have ethanol free. 

Ironically Michigan was one of the states pushing ethanol because we grow corn, but we also had laws for the greater Metro Detroit area the specified a certain RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) which prevented them from putting ethanol in our fuel.  Well they changed that RVP law a few years back to give ethanol fuels a looser RVP requirement.  Now it's all got ethanol.  Around boating areas you can find REC90 which is ethanol free 90 octane and that's because many boats and outboards cannot handle the ethanol.  It I'm not comfortable only running 90 octane in my high performance bikes.  

It's easy to test fuel for ethanol.  They sell little calibrated glass vials.  You put a little gas in it and a little water.  You shake it up and the ethanol separates out.  The graduations on the vial will tell you the percentage.  Briggs and Stratton sells one for a couple bucks on Amaon if I remember correctly.  

I bring this up because gas stations in my experience have zero clue what they are selling.  When ethanol first started showing up here none of the pumps were marked and all the gas stations claimed it was ethanol free.  They were wrong (or lying).  I always tested it with my little vial and more and more often found it until I gave up testing a couple years ago because all the gas had it.  

Doc

Edited by Doc_d

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Ethanol free 92 octane sure makes a noticeable power difference in my '17 KTM 300 so you should see and feel a difference with your 300 husky.

 

Joe

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31 minutes ago, trailmeisterjoe said:

Ethanol free 92 octane sure makes a noticeable power difference in my '17 KTM 300 so you should see and feel a difference with your 300 husky.

 

Joe

Do you buy it at the pump? Would like to try some in my bike if easy to get locally and not priced close to race gas.

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6 hours ago, slothspeed said:

Do you buy it at the pump? Would like to try some in my bike if easy to get locally and not priced close to race gas.

I've heard you an get 100 non-ethanol at local airports also marinas often have higher octane non-ethanol if you are near a large body of water

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9 hours ago, slothspeed said:

Do you buy it at the pump? Would like to try some in my bike if easy to get locally and not priced close to race gas.

Check on this website for locations. There are many around WA that sell the stuff. I get mine at a little general store on the way to Tahuya and it runs something like $4.70/gal. Some stations only sell regular though.  I decided to just try some and see, and after it wasn't diluted with what was left in my tank I noticed a definite performance gain and cleaner running. Been running it ever since.

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA

Joe

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, trailmeisterjoe said:

Check on this website for locations. There are many around WA that sell the stuff. I get mine at a little general store on the way to Tahuya and it runs something like $4.70/gal. Some stations only sell regular though.  I decided to just try some and see, and after it wasn't diluted with what was left in my tank I noticed a definite performance gain and cleaner running. Been running it ever since.

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA

Joe

Get the little Briggs and Stratton vial and test it yourself.  I used this website a few years ago when ethanol started showing up in my area.   It was wrong more than it was right.  I found notifications on the pump wrong both ways (pumps that said it had ethanol always didn't and pump that didn't say it had ethanol often did).   And the gas station employees were also wrong.   So if it's important to you, test it yourself.  Technically you don't need the vial if you don't care about the percentage, but for $3 why not.

https://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-795161-Gasohol-Replaces/dp/B002WNULS4/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=briggs+and+stratton+ethanol+tester&qid=1555606114&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull

 

Doc

Edited by Doc_d

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