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Posted (edited)

First, I apologize for yet another "is (blank) a good first bike" thread.  I've done a lot of reading, but want some opinions on my specific situation.

1. What is your skill Level?

I've never ridden a dirt bike.  I do track days upper intermediate level with a track dedicated zx6r.  Sold my s1k cuz street riding is boring.  I threw a leg over my first bike 3 years ago.

2. What's your height & weight?

5'9" 205 lbs in the buff...  Stocky solid build with a bit of a gut.  

3. What year, make, & model of motorcycle are you coming from? And, what do you want the new bike to do better?

Like I said, first dirt bike but I've ridden a '15 Monster 1200s, '16 s1krr, and my '13 zx6r dedicated track bike.

4. What's your ballpark budget?

Not an issue...

5. What types of terrain will you be riding?

Dunno, I'd like to try a bit of everything.  I'm looking street legal for maximum flexibility and the sumo option.

6. Will you be racing or just play riding?

Obviously just playing to start, but you never know.  I'm a bit "go big or go home".

I'm also 43 if that matters.  Right now I'm leaning toward a new KTM 250 EXC-F, but wondering if a 350 would be better given my weight and sumo aspirations?

Edited by Justin Hanks
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I'm just going to give you a few things to think about.    

Trying to make 1 bike do everything is not very realistic.  Even if you are willing to do the work to make it happen, you'll probably have a bike that really isn't great anywhere.  You say that budget isn't a problem.   If that's true you might want to consider either starting with a supermoto or a dedicated offroad bike (new or used) and then perhaps after a while add the other.   I'll try to explain why below...

First off, are you willing to be swapping out wheels every time you want to do one or the other?  Plus the expense of buying a second set of wheels (which could have been used towards a second used bike)?  Final drive gearing that works on the road will suck in the dirt and vice versa.  

Secondly plateable off road bikes, often called dual sport bikes, fall into two categories.  I call the first category "true dual sports".  Those are bikes like the Suzuki DRZ400S, Suzuki DR650, Yamaha WR250R, Honda CRF250L, Kawasaki KLX250  KTM 690 and Husky 701,  These bikes are street legal, reliable and low maintenance.  They are also typically pretty low peformance (KTM / Husky excepted), very heavy (300ish pounds) and not that great in tough single track offroad.  They are great for exploring  paved back roads,  gravel roads and two tracks.  They will go 30,000, 50,000 or even more miles with just basic maintenance.

The second category of "dual sport" bikes are the race bikes.  These are bikes like the KTM EXC-Fs, Huksy FEs, Beta RR-S and the new Honda CRF450L.  Because these bikes come with a plate, people assume these are the same category of bikes as I described above.  They are not.  In enduro racing, the bike often needs a plate.  That's why the manufacturers make these bikes with plates.  But make no mistake, these are race bikes.  They have race bike performance, race bike weight (220 - 250 pounds)  and race bike maintenance schedules.   They don't have cush drive.  I own a KTM.  It has 10 hour oil changes, 30 hour valve adjustments and 130 top-end rebuilds.  People buy these without understanding that, run them on the road, don't do the maintenance and pop motors.  So that's why it's very important to understand the difference.  Some people have gotten quite a few hours out of bikes like the KTM 500 but even in the best case scenario, these bikes are probably not going do do more than 8,000 or 10,000 miles before needing a rebuild and often much less than that.

So it's your call but I think you might be disappointed trying to make one bike do everything.  That's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.  But if you are serious about getting out into the dirt, into single track, getting a dedicated dirt bike is going to make it easier and more fun.  

If you decide to go with a dedicated dirt bike, let's talk about that.   Your road riding experience will give you the basic clutch, throttle and brake control.  But you'll still be a novice when it comes to dealing with riding off road.  So I think your decision to start with a 250 or 350 4 stroke is a good one.  The 250 is going to be a little more forgiving.  But I ride a 350 and think for someone with some riding experience it's not any harder to ride than the 250.   The 450s are a completely different animal.  They deliver their power over a much smaller RPM range with a lot of torque and around here you'll find that most experienced riders think they are a handicap in the woods.  For a new rider you it's almost always a huge mistake choosing a 450.  Also for riding in the woods, don't buy a motocross bike.  To a newer rider they look the same as the enduro bikes but there are important differences that make them good on the track and not so good in the woods.

If you decided to go with a dedicated dirt bike here are the bikes you should be considering.  I'm only focusing on 4-strokes because that's what you mentioned.  If you were interested in two strokes let us know.   I categorize these into two groups.   They are "enduro" and "cross country".  Enduro bikes are designed to eat up rocks, roots and gnarly single track.  Cross Country bikes are a little stiffer and excel in faster woods riding (hare scrambles) and even a little MX track riding but won't be as good through the roots and rocks.

  • Yamaha WR250F -  Enduro
  • Yamaha YZ250FX - Cross Country
  • KTM 250 / 350 EXC-F - Enduro
  • KTM 250 / 350 XC-F - Cross Country
  • Husky FE 250 / 350 - Enduro ... Made by KTM these are like the KTM EXC-Fs but have a different rear suspension setup.  But pretty much the same bikes.
  • Husky Fx 250 / 350 - Cross County ... Made by KTM these are like the KTM XC-Fs but have a different rear suspension setup.  But pretty much the same bikes.
  • Beta 350 RR / RR-S - Enduro - These bikes have the lowest seat height of the full sized enduro bikes.  

Doc

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22 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

I'm just going to give you a few things to think about.    

Trying to make 1 bike do everything is not very realistic.  Even if you are willing to do the work to make it happen, you'll probably have a bike that really isn't great anywhere.  You say that budget isn't a problem.   If that's true you might want to consider either starting with a supermoto or a dedicated offroad bike (new or used) and then perhaps after a while add the other.   I'll try to explain why below...

First off, are you willing to be swapping out wheels every time you want to do one or the other?  Plus the expense of buying a second set of wheels (which could have been used towards a second used bike)?  Final drive gearing that works on the road will suck in the dirt and vice versa.  

Secondly plateable off road bikes, often called dual sport bikes, fall into two categories.  I call the first category "true dual sports".  Those are bikes like the Suzuki DRZ400S, Suzuki DR650, Yamaha WR250R, Honda CRF250L, Kawasaki KLX250  KTM 690 and Husky 701,  These bikes are street legal, reliable and low maintenance.  They are also typically pretty low peformance (KTM / Husky excepted), very heavy (300ish pounds) and not that great in tough single track offroad.  They are great for exploring  paved back roads,  gravel roads and two tracks.  They will go 30,000, 50,000 or even more miles with just basic maintenance.

The second category of "dual sport" bikes are the race bikes.  These are bikes like the KTM EXC-Fs, Huksy FEs, Beta RR-S and the new Honda CRF450L.  Because these bikes come with a plate, people assume these are the same category of bikes as I described above.  They are not.  In enduro racing, the bike often needs a plate.  That's why the manufacturers make these bikes with plates.  But make no mistake, these are race bikes.  They have race bike performance, race bike weight (220 - 250 pounds)  and race bike maintenance schedules.   They don't have cush drive.  I own a KTM.  It has 10 hour oil changes, 30 hour valve adjustments and 130 top-end rebuilds.  People buy these without understanding that, run them on the road, don't do the maintenance and pop motors.  So that's why it's very important to understand the difference.  Some people have gotten quite a few hours out of bikes like the KTM 500 but even in the best case scenario, these bikes are probably not going do do more than 8,000 or 10,000 miles before needing a rebuild and often much less than that.

So it's your call but I think you might be disappointed trying to make one bike do everything.  That's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.  But if you are serious about getting out into the dirt, into single track, getting a dedicated dirt bike is going to make it easier and more fun.  

If you decide to go with a dedicated dirt bike, let's talk about that.   Your road riding experience will give you the basic clutch, throttle and brake control.  But you'll still be a novice when it comes to dealing with riding off road.  So I think your decision to start with a 250 or 350 4 stroke is a good one.  The 250 is going to be a little more forgiving.  But I ride a 350 and think for someone with some riding experience it's not any harder to ride than the 250.   The 450s are a completely different animal.  They deliver their power over a much smaller RPM range with a lot of torque and around here you'll find that most experienced riders think they are a handicap in the woods.  For a new rider you it's almost always a huge mistake choosing a 450.  Also for riding in the woods, don't buy a motocross bike.  To a newer rider they look the same as the enduro bikes but there are important differences that make them good on the track and not so good in the woods.

If you decided to go with a dedicated dirt bike here are the bikes you should be considering.  I'm only focusing on 4-strokes because that's what you mentioned.  If you were interested in two strokes let us know.   I categorize these into two groups.   They are "enduro" and "cross country".  Enduro bikes are designed to eat up rocks, roots and gnarly single track.  Cross Country bikes are a little stiffer and excel in faster woods riding (hare scrambles) and even a little MX track riding but won't be as good through the roots and rocks.

  • Yamaha WR250F -  Enduro
  • Yamaha YZ250FX - Cross Country
  • KTM 250 / 350 EXC-F - Enduro
  • KTM 250 / 350 XC-F - Cross Country
  • Husky FE 250 / 350 - Enduro ... Made by KTM these are like the KTM EXC-Fs but have a different rear suspension setup.  But pretty much the same bikes.
  • Husky Fx 250 / 350 - Cross County ... Made by KTM these are like the KTM XC-Fs but have a different rear suspension setup.  But pretty much the same bikes.
  • Beta 350 RR / RR-S - Enduro - These bikes have the lowest seat height of the full sized enduro bikes.  

Doc

Hey Doc,

Thanks for the reply.  To clarify, I am not looking for a street bike.  The idea of purchasing some sumo wheels for hooligan stuff is just an option I'd like to have.  Maybe even cart track or local sumo race or something just for fun.

Mostly I just want a street legal straight up dirt bike for when the mining roads or trails are fairly close to home.

That said, xc or enduro?  My local dealer is KTM, Yamaha, or Kawasaki.  So Husky and Beta are out.  

And thanks for the heads up on the maintenance.  I'm used to oil and tires every weekend or 2 on my track bike, so it sucks but makes sense.

The XC sounds like it might be more fun for local hare scrambles, mx track (just practice rides for fun) or more open trails and mining roads.

I don't know, the more I research the more I can't decide...

The multiple bike idea isn't a bad one.  Figured if I really like mx track riding I could pickup a used 2stroke.

I am focused on 4strokes as I understand they are easier to ride and I don't think I've seen a factory plated 2stroke?

Does that help any?

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Posted (edited)

Just to clarify, the only bikes in the list I provided that come with a plate are the KTM EXC-Fs, Husky FEs and Beta RR-Ss.  The other bikes don't come with a plate but depending where you live may be easy to plate.  

My KTM has a plate but it goes in the back of my truck to the trail head or enduro race.

I also have a DRZ400S that I pounds miles onto exploring paved back roads, gravel roads, two tracks, etc.  I picked it for for $3200 with 2,000 miles on it.  So if you wanted to go the two bike route, picking up a used DRZ and turning it into a super moto isn't that expensive.  Or there is even a supermoto model of the DRZ but they tend to sell for a little more money used.  So just a thought.

 

Doc

Edited by Doc_d

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1 hour ago, Doc_d said:

Trying to make 1 bike do everything is not very realistic.  Even if you are willing to do the work to make it happen, you'll probably have a bike that really isn't great anywhere.  You say that budget isn't a problem.   If that's true you might want to consider either starting with a supermoto or a dedicated offroad bike (new or used) and then perhaps after a while add the other.   I'll try to explain why below...

First off, are you willing to be swapping out wheels every time you want to do one or the other?  Plus the expense of buying a second set of wheels (which could have been used towards a second used bike)?  Final drive gearing that works on the road will suck in the dirt and vice versa.  

THIS.  Off-road a 250 will be more than enough bike but on pavement it won't be all that thrilling a ride.  Big bore sumo's are the bomb but those bikes will be difficult and sometimes terrifying on dirt. 

Buddy of mine has done the wheel swap thing and very quickly it becomes a chore.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Doc_d said:

Just to clarify, the only bikes in the list I provided that come with a plate are the KTM XCF-Ws, Husky FEs and Beta RR-Ss.  The other bikes don't come with a plate but depending where you live may be easy to plate.  

My KTM has a plate but it goes in the back of my truck to the trail head or enduro race.

I also have a DRZ400S that I pounds miles onto exploring paved back roads, gravel roads, two tracks, etc.  I picked it for for $3200 with 2,000 miles on it.  So if you wanted to go the two bike route, picking up a used DRZ and turning it into a super moto isn't that expensive.  Or there is even a supermoto model of the DRZ but they tend to sell for a little more money used.  So just a thought.

 

Doc

So sumo aside, XC or Enduro?...  Are the XC-F bikes plated from the factory?  I didn't think they had taillights or signals?  What KTM do you ride?  So what if I forget the plate, then is it 250 XC-F or XC 2-stroke?

58 minutes ago, CDNSXV said:

THIS.  Off-road a 250 will be more than enough bike but on pavement it won't be all that thrilling a ride.  Big bore sumo's are the bomb but those bikes will be difficult and sometimes terrifying on dirt. 

Buddy of mine has done the wheel swap thing and very quickly it becomes a chore.

I hear ya...  Plus a sumo kit is like $1200 with rotors & sprocket.  Probably not worth it.

Edited by Justin Hanks
forget the plate...?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Justin Hanks said:

So sumo aside, XC or Enduro?...  Are the XC-F bikes plated from the factory?  I didn't think they had taillights or signals?  What KTM do you ride?  So what if I forget the plate, then is it 250 XC-F or XC 2-stroke?

I hear ya...  Plus a sumo kit is like $1200 with rotors & sprocket.  Probably not worth it.

Sorry that was a mistype on my part...  I'll edit it and fix it.  It should have said the only bikes in the list I provided that have a plate are the KTM EXC-Fs, Husky FEs and Beta RR-Ss.  The cross country bikes don't have a plate but depending what state you are in you might be able to get one.  However the cross country bikes typically have a close ratio trans which will probably suck on pavement.

Doc

Edited by Doc_d
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5 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

Sorry that was a mistype on my part...  I'll edit it and fix it.  It should have said the only bikes in the list I provided that have a plate are the KTM EXC-Fs, Husky FEs and Beta RR-Ss.  The cross country bikes don't have a plate but depending what state you are in you might be able to get one.  However the cross country bikes typically have a close ratio trans which will probably suck on pavement.

Doc

Forget pavement, which bike?  150 XC-W?

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1 minute ago, Justin Hanks said:

Forget pavement, which bike?  150 XC-W?

If you want to rule out pavement and you want a 4 stroke, I'd recommend these. 

  • Yamaha YZ250FX
  • KTM 250 XC-F / Husky FX 250
  • Yamaha WR250F

If you want a two stroke

  • KTM 150 XC-W  / Husky TE 150 (or 200 XC-W if buying used...  Discontinued but great bikes)
  • Beta 200
  • Beta Xtrainer

Decide between 2 stroke and 4 stroke first and then we can help narrow it down from there.

Doc

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

If you want to rule out pavement and you want a 4 stroke, I'd recommend these. 

  • Yamaha YZ250FX
  • KTM 250 XC-F / Husky FX 250
  • Yamaha WR250F

If you want a two stroke

  • KTM 150 XC-W  / Husky TE 150 (or 200 XC-W if buying used...  Discontinued but great bikes)
  • Beta 200
  • Beta Xtrainer

Decide between 2 stroke and 4 stroke first and then we can help narrow it down from there.

Doc

The more I think about maintenance, the more I think a 2-stroke makes sense.  The overall cost of ownership seems much lower.

Would the 250 XC be a horrible idea?

Edited by Justin Hanks
250 xc?

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Hey Doc,



Thanks for the reply.  To clarify, I am not looking for a street bike.  The idea of purchasing some sumo wheels for hooligan stuff is just an option I'd like to have.  Maybe even cart track or local sumo race or something just for fun.



Mostly I just want a street legal straight up dirt bike for when the mining roads or trails are fairly close to home.



That said, xc or enduro?  My local dealer is KTM, Yamaha, or Kawasaki.  So Husky and Beta are out.  



And thanks for the heads up on the maintenance.  I'm used to oil and tires every weekend or 2 on my track bike, so it sucks but makes sense.



The XC sounds like it might be more fun for local hare scrambles, mx track (just practice rides for fun) or more open trails and mining roads.



I don't know, the more I research the more I can't decide...



The multiple bike idea isn't a bad one.  Figured if I really like mx track riding I could pickup a used 2stroke.



I am focused on 4strokes as I understand they are easier to ride and I don't think I've seen a factory plated 2stroke?



Does that help any?
Be aware, your street bike experience means absolutely nothing. I was a fully sponsored road racer and had ridden dirt bikes as a kid but when I entered my first race on a dirt bike i was getting passed by 15yo girls in the tight stuff. This is not an easy thing to do and fitness is 10x more important than you think. You will have a lot of moments where you ask yourself why am i doing this, but 50 or so hours on a bike that's set up properly will turn the corner. Suspension is number one offroad, seat height is extremely important too. It's good you're not on a tight budget, buy really good protective gear, you'll need it. The minute you think you can keep it upright for a couple hours, enter a GP or Scramble format race in the newb class so you can see where you need to improve. Have fun.
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2 minutes ago, HevyRotashunz said:
3 hours ago, Justin Hanks said:



Hey Doc,



Thanks for the reply.  To clarify, I am not looking for a street bike.  The idea of purchasing some sumo wheels for hooligan stuff is just an option I'd like to have.  Maybe even cart track or local sumo race or something just for fun.



Mostly I just want a street legal straight up dirt bike for when the mining roads or trails are fairly close to home.



That said, xc or enduro?  My local dealer is KTM, Yamaha, or Kawasaki.  So Husky and Beta are out.  



And thanks for the heads up on the maintenance.  I'm used to oil and tires every weekend or 2 on my track bike, so it sucks but makes sense.



The XC sounds like it might be more fun for local hare scrambles, mx track (just practice rides for fun) or more open trails and mining roads.



I don't know, the more I research the more I can't decide...



The multiple bike idea isn't a bad one.  Figured if I really like mx track riding I could pickup a used 2stroke.



I am focused on 4strokes as I understand they are easier to ride and I don't think I've seen a factory plated 2stroke?



Does that help any?

Read more  

Be aware, your street bike experience means absolutely nothing. I was a fully sponsored road racer and had ridden dirt bikes as a kid but when I entered my first race on a dirt bike i was getting passed by 15yo girls in the tight stuff. This is not an easy thing to do and fitness is 10x more important than you think. You will have a lot of moments where you ask yourself why am i doing this, but 50 or so hours on a bike that's set up properly will turn the corner. Suspension is number one offroad, seat height is extremely important too. It's good you're not on a tight budget, buy really good protective gear, you'll need it. The minute you think you can keep it upright for a couple hours, enter a GP or Scramble format race in the newb class so you can see where you need to improve. Have fun.

So I'm leaning more and more toward a 2-stroke.  Local dealer has leftover '18s for $1700 off msrp.  Looking at the 150 xc-w, 250 xc, or 250 xc-w tpi.  I am on tip-toes on all of them.

I guessing that's too high?  Would I have to lower whichever I bought?  Also, is the 250 smoker a horrible idea?

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So I'm leaning more and more toward a 2-stroke.  Local dealer has leftover '18s for $1700 off msrp.  Looking at the 150 xc-w, 250 xc, or 250 xc-w tpi.  I am on tip-toes on all of them.

 

 

 

I guessing that's too high?  Would I have to lower whichever I bought?  Also, is the 250 smoker a horrible idea?

An xc-w is probably the best choice to start out on because of the wide ratio and softer suspension. But i don't know what your local terrain looks like either. If it's more open terrain an xc is great, but it is a race bike. The more compliant valving rates would really help you out until you get faster. That said, the debate about whether the tpi works as good or is as reliable as a carb rages on. Overall I'd say yeah, get the 250xc-w. You'll probably never need more power than that. The tuneable power valve means you can make it smooth or nasty in a couple minutes.

 

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6 minutes ago, HevyRotashunz said:

An xc-w is probably the best choice to start out on because of the wide ratio and softer suspension. But i don't know what your local terrain looks like either. If it's more open terrain an xc is great, but it is a race bike. The more compliant valving rates would really help you out until you get faster. That said, the debate about whether the tpi works as good or is as reliable as a carb rages on. Overall I'd say yeah, get the 250xc-w. You'll probably never need more power than that. The tuneable power valve means you can make it smooth or nasty in a couple minutes.

 

The TPI has a tuneable power valve?  That sounds good.

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A lower seat height makes learning easier, but most guys under 6' are going to be on tip toes.  Most adults start on lower air cooled trail bikes.  But with your road riding experience you can skip that phase but it means you might have to learn to deal with the taller seat height right off the bat.

I'm not a fan of lowering dirt bikes unless it's absolutely necessary.  It's all that suspension travel that makes a dirt bike do what it can do.  I'm 5'7" - 5'8" and ride a KTM.  You'll get used to shifting your butt over, keep one foot up on the peg and getting the other foot down.  So unless your shorter than me, ride it like it is for a while and you'll get used to after the first 10 hours or so.   But there are bikes like the Betas (and specifically the Beta Xtrainer) that are just a little bit lower than the KTMs.  

A 250 2-stroke Enduro bike is going to be the most flexible bike.  They are more forgiving than a 250 2-stroke motocross bike like a YZ250 and can be toned down by adjusting the power valve.  I would never recommend one for a complete beginner.  With your road riding experience you may be able to start on one and it would be a bike you'd be happy with for many year.  But I'd only recommend it if you're the kind of guy that's naturally pretty good at trying new things and aren't timid at all.  But even then you are going to have to make a concerted effort to really take it easy and focus on that throttle control.  I'd probably recommend the XC-W is probably a better choice for a newer rider than the XC.  The wider and lower gearing and softer suspension will make things easier in the single track.  The XC is better for a more aggressive fast rider on trails with less chop and more big stuff (whoops, jumps).

The 150 XC-W is probably the safer choice for a newer rider.  However You might find you outgrow it in a couple seasons.  Also when it comes to 2-strokes, I find that the smaller bore bikes have to be ridden a bit harder and more aggressively which can sometimes frustrate a newer rider.  Although I hear the 150 XC-W can be lugged pretty well so my experience with small bore 2-strokes might now apply here as I've never ridden the 150.

Doc

 

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11 minutes ago, HevyRotashunz said:

An xc-w is probably the best choice to start out on because of the wide ratio and softer suspension. But i don't know what your local terrain looks like either. If it's more open terrain an xc is great, but it is a race bike. The more compliant valving rates would really help you out until you get faster. That said, the debate about whether the tpi works as good or is as reliable as a carb rages on. Overall I'd say yeah, get the 250xc-w. You'll probably never need more power than that. The tuneable power valve means you can make it smooth or nasty in a couple minutes.

 

Ha!  I was basically just typing out the exact same thing.  Did two people on ThumperTalk just agree on something? 

Doc

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1 minute ago, Doc_d said:

Ha!  I was basically just typing out the exact same thing.  Did two people on ThumperTalk just agree on something? 

Doc

So xc-w it is...  Now carb or tpi?

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2 minutes ago, Justin Hanks said:

So xc-w it is...  Now carb or tpi?

Does your dealer have a 250 XC-W with a carb?  I thought the 250s went to TPI in 2018 so that would mean that 2017 was the last year for the 250 XC-W with a carb.  But I could be mistaken.

TPI is new and there are a few people saying they've had issues.  But there are a lot of people saying it is, by far, the best bikes they've ever ridden which is saying a lot.  I would hope if there were any issues KTM would make it right. 

There are two upsides to going with the TPI...  I hear they are a little softer off the bottom and the power is more linear which would be good for you are a newer rider.  The second is you won't have to mess with jetting. Jetting isn't that hard but as a new rider it's just one more thing that takes time to learn and there is a learning curve.

I'd be happy with either, but me personally, would go for the TPI.  

Doc

 

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8 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

Does your dealer have a 250 XC-W with a carb?  I thought the 250s went to TPI in 2018 so that would mean that 2017 was the last year for the 250 XC-W with a carb.  But I could be mistaken.

TPI is new and there are a few people saying they've had issues.  But there are a lot of people saying it is, by far, the best bikes they've ever ridden which is saying a lot.  I would hope if there were any issues KTM would make it right. 

There are two upsides to going with the TPI...  I hear they are a little softer off the bottom and the power is more linear which would be good for you are a newer rider.  The second is you won't have to mess with jetting. Jetting isn't that hard but as a new rider it's just one more thing that takes time to learn and there is a learning curve.

I'd be happy with either, but me personally, would go for the TPI.  

Doc

 

Dealer has 2018 XC $1700 off sticker, XC-W w/TPI $1000 more, XC-W carb $500 more.  XC is the cheapest, no hr meter or odometer, no lights, air forks...

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