Public Lands - the future

[dmac1]

I dunno where to post this....I think it should be in each regional forum so the maximum # of people can see it.

The words below are from Jon Miller and I took them off a social media post. I think (hope!) that 10 years is too soon, but I agree that some day, maybe 20-30 years from now, it'll be pretty much as Jon says. I don't agree with 100% of what he says, but the gist for sure.

All we can do is try to slow down the inevitable by getting involved and supporting multi-use trails. Lets face it, other users aren't gonna evaporate, and with population growth, we all must share. Dirt bikers have shared....many fault our advocates for that and the result: we seem to have born the largest burden of closures, but its everywhere...except hiking seems to have been mostly immune so far, and prolly equestrians too.  'Environmentalists' continually try to lock out most users. How can we get everyone on the same page before its too late? Jon says it lots better than I:

---------------------------------------

Mark my words.
In ten years, we will no longer be able to explore our National Forests or BLM public lands via “motorized” or “mechanized” means, like we enjoy (take for granted) today.

This includes dispersed camping, hunting and fishing, 4-wheeling, “overlanding”, “Airstreaming” and mountain biking, in addition to snowmobiling, dirt biking, and OHV/SxS.

We will all have to wait in line to pay at the gate. Camping will only be allowed in paved KOA-like campgrounds. Mountain Bikes will be allowed only in MTB Parks. Hiking access will be allowed with a guide, and be bused in from a local community parking lot. 4x4’s and OHVs will only be allowed in a few small places. Dirt bikes and snowmobiles will be in small specific zones, and only allowed on trail. The rules will be strictly enforced with an annual pass and integrated GPS navigation functions that will put your machine in “limp mode” when you cross a boundary. And in response, people will either break the law, or be confined to the grid.

It’s not too far fetched to see where things could go in the not-so-distant future.

For all of you who believe that your “user group” has the supreme “right” to do whatever you want / wherever you want, regardless of the rules, and at the expense of the freedom of others, I’d like to personally thank you for fueling the folks who are well-funded and highly organized, and will stop at nothing to close it all down.

Likewise, for all of you who believe that motorized recreation represents a majority of outdoor enthusiasts. People who are hell-bent on destroying the environment and wildlife habitats, I would also challenge you to realize that your bandwagon is not only incorrect, but it will ultimately force all outdoor rec into a “National Park” type of experience. A highly regulated, exclusionary experience that puts you in long lines to pay fees, and sitting in traffic jams in fragile environments.

Everyone is implicit in this downward spiral. The powersports industries promote that we should “go anywhere we want” and “get out there and tear it up”. And the Outdoor industry virtue-signals “environmentalism or else”, even though the marketing of this “$887 billion” dollar industry promotes more and more impact on the global environment via outdoor tourism (and rampant overseas travel and manufacturing)—while also supporting “Wilderness” closures across the west—which effectively narrows outdoor recreation into smaller and smaller corridors that end up getting even more damaged (or “trammeled”) because of this squeeze. I would argue that the outdoor industry is an industry like any other industry, and the impacts to the (global) environment and climate are just as destructive as the industries that they are lobbying into obsolescence. “Wilderness” has become big business, and a winning marketing strategy, for many people and organizations, (in both the for-profit and non-profit sectors.)

Meanwhile, our Federal Land Management agencies (speaking particularly of USFS and BLM) are so tied up in lawsuits from Wilderness groups (who take advantage of loopholes in the federal court system and get paid by the American taxpayer for legal costs, regardless of outcome). The USFS and BLM are also operating with half the staff as they did ten years ago due to progressive budget cuts, AND shouldering the massive costs of Wildfires across the west—many would say, due to climate change. (I won’t get into whether I believe climate change is human caused or not, that’s a whole other conversation. But the climate trends are volatile and unpredictable and wildfires have been on the rise over the last 15 years, and fighting these fires has come at a huge expense.)

If you’ve been following my work over the last five years, you would know that I’ve stuck my neck out really far, and I have ruffled a lot of feathers on this subject. In my quest to “UNITE” backcountry recreationists from both sides of the “human-powered vs motorized access” debate, I have found myself ghosted, blackballed and silenced by companies and industries I was passionate about promoting. I have been discredited by people I respect, and have received hate mail by communities I’ve worked hard to support. People I care about have distanced themselves from me because I expressed views in pursuit of open conversations that challenged their bandwagon beliefs. (Can’t offend the shareholders, sponsors, or the clients!) I’ve offended environmentalists and powersports lobbying groups, alike. And recently, I’ve been called out and shamed for standing up against behavior from one disrespectful person who has done a lot of damage to our snowmobile community, and the future of our sport. But hey, give that guy lots of media attention and backing, because America loves a great rich white guy, bro-marketer, and media provocateur. Yay for freedom!

And if you wonder where my politics fit in, I’m probably more of an “independent” or “freedom loving libertarian”, but I’ve been called a “socialist” from one side and a “MAGA” from the other. Heaven knows there can’t ever be room for a fresh perspective, or a thoughtful debate. Everything is binary these days. You’re black or white, red or blue, and there’s no room for nuance or a spectrum of complexity on any topic. Everything is political, and if you don’t believe things a certain way, watch out! Labeling people is so much easier than having to be respectful and intelligent these days.

So, carry on. Do whatever you want. Keep polarizing yourselves and pouring gas on the fire that will ultimately end in a widespread loss of public land access for all. The more ignorant, entitled and self-righteous each community / industry is, the more the opposition will mount against each side.

The more we can “other” ourselves from one another, the faster we will be talking to our children and grandchildren about all of the awesome adventures and freedoms that we “used to have”.

If anyone actually cares about this topic, I would encourage you to get off the social media webs, and get engaged. Stop getting all of your information from headlines and virtuous brand marketing campaigns.

If you are a marketer who makes your living off of selling “adventure” in its many various forms, I would encourage you to do some research for yourself. (Not “research” that your employer or industry gives you.) Work on gaining a better understanding of how the things you sell, or the way you sell them, or who you sell them to, or how your product is made or will be used, actually has real and important impacts on local communities, and regular folks’ way of life, across this great country.

I actually believe that there’s room for everyone to enjoy the outdoors, the way they wish. The problem is that there’s always someone who will tell you that you’re on the wrong side of history or some other ideology, without even doing their own research to know what they actually believe in. 
Let alone have the courage to stand up for something outside of popular media brainwashing.

Most don’t realize the power they actually have to be a productive contributor toward solving the problems we face together, as a society.

Public Lands are a democratic idea. That means that we all have a voice. If you’ve ever been to a public meeting where the Forest Service shares their future planning drafts, you’d know that there aren’t very many people who actually show up. Nor would you know who those people are that are actually investing their time and money to get involved and educate themselves. We all have the opportunity to take part in the public engagement processes that will establish the rules that will dictate where and how we can enjoy outdoor experiences.

And if that long winded rant still has you confused on where I stand, here you go.

I believe that everyone should have abundant and affordable access to the outdoors. And I believe we all do have some level of impact when we recreate. That impact does need to be understood, managed, or cared-for, to some extent. I’m glad we have Wilderness lands that have been protected and set aside for future generations. However, I don’t believe that over-snow travel impacts the soils, flora and wildlife as much as human feet or hooves when there is no snow on the ground (“Wilderness” only allows human- or horse-powered access.) But just because I personally don’t believe there’s any harm from the way I choose to recreate, doesn’t mean that I will ever publicly condone breaking the law. Seriously, we have enough problems to deal with, and it’s a bad look for our community. I believe that if all who enjoy being outdoors could shift their mindset into RESPECT: respecting the land, the rules and boundaries established, the wildlife, AND other people that also enjoy being outdoors, we wouldn’t have many of these problems. (And if you’re going to be disrespectful and/or break the law, for goodness sakes, PLEASE don’t publish it on social media, for all to see and stereotype.)

Lastly, I believe that no person or group should be so entitled that it excludes other people from enjoying the outdoors. Public Lands belong to ALL OF US. Not just the privileged few. And I believe that it is vital to stay connected to our Public Lands as a culture, or else future generations will never care about their healthy benefits, let alone protecting them for the future.

Thanks for reading. All intelligent, thoughtful and respectful comments are welcome. You don’t have to agree, to have respect.

Edited August 8, 2019 by dmac1

[piltoyougram]

dmac1: You have posted some valuable reading information. Thank you. I'm in great hopes this will be read by all the community? I see your posting from Colorado, your area is blessed with a great range of open areas for all out door activities. Here in N.C. we have a few choice places to ride which fall under the National Parks(USFS). We also a small number of P.O. private owned OHV-S/S Which are pay at the Gate$$.$$! I look for the later to outlast the rest. I really don't see the tree huggers and spotted owl watcher's wanting to take on these P.O. private owned places. We do have a few select places to ride in our National Parks (USFS) 5 that I know of? They also are a pay at the gate $5.00 and much cheaper then the $$.$$  P. O.  So $5.00 per day which includes OHV and camping. Of course as we all know theirs the select few that don't buy a pass in hopes they don't get caught?!!? Dumb on their part because the money goes to a very good cause in trail up keep 32+ miles, (half of it maybe single track)? nice rest rooms, parking area's, camping sites. From what I'm told the Feds. and the Nation Parks (USFS). share the maintenance costs. From past previous years the economy going south and gas prices rising the National Parks (USFS) use dropped off 75%. This lead to a very noticeable drop in Rangers patrolling, main entrance roads being kept up. The word got out, if the National Parks (USFS) didn't collect their share of revenue, these sites stand a good chance of having the gates closed. Hope you folks out west survive the bureaucratic BS!       

[SkinnySarge]

Maybe if hikers, MTB’ers, And ORV’ers would contribute to conservation and the preservation of public lands they would have a seat at the table of discussion.  As it is, hunters and fishermen contribute the lion’s share (and it isn’t even close) of money towards maintaining these lands.  So they get the most say in how that land is managed...and a lot of them don’t like noisy machines in their hunting areas.  Google “Dingle Johnson Act” and “Pittman Robertson Act” to understand why.

Edited August 8, 2019 by SkinnySarge

[SkinnySarge]

I should add that I am totally for “multi-use” but it seems that as a hunter I am paying a shit load of money for everyone else to use the resource year-round, while I only get to use it for 5 days a year.  Pay up if it is important to you...otherwise, quit complaining.

 

I would be in favor of a “Public Lands Pass” that you would need to purchase to recreate on USFS or BLM lands.  Of course Hikers, mtb’ers, etc would throw a fit.

Edited August 8, 2019 by SkinnySarge

[Piney Woods]

I see the ten years as too long for this to happen if the current dems gain the presidency. It will happen within the first term no matter the outcry. The leftist/socialist/marxist dictators are nuts and will crush our way of life, economy and freedom. Mark my words!

[SkinnySarge]

1 minute ago, Piney Woods said:

I see the ten years as too long for this to happen if the current dems gain the presidency. It will happen within the first term no matter the outcry. The leftist/socialist/marxist dictators are nuts and will crush our way of life, economy and freedom. Mark my words!

I can see that too.  Sad.

One side is trying to sell our public lands, and the other side is trying to close access.  Stop the planet, I want off.

[Poodlelover151]

I should add that I am totally for “multi-use” but it seems that as a hunter I am paying a shit load of money for everyone else to use the resource year-round, while I only get to use it for 5 days a year.  Pay up if it is important to you...otherwise, quit complaining.
 
I would be in favor of a “Public Lands Pass” that you would need to purchase to recreate on USFS or BLM lands.  Of course Hikers, mtb’ers, etc would throw a fit.

Agree completely!!
Non-hunters and antis don’t care and don’t want to know who is floating the public lands’ boat.
I can go to Idaho and ride my dirt bike for a month for relatively nothing, but its several hundred to go hunting for a week. I’m happy to pay it but other groups should pay their share.

[Huskydog14]

1 hour ago, SkinnySarge said:

I should add that I am totally for “multi-use” but it seems that as a hunter I am paying a shit load of money for everyone else to use the resource year-round, while I only get to use it for 5 days a year.  Pay up if it is important to you...otherwise, quit complaining.

 

I would be in favor of a “Public Lands Pass” that you would need to purchase to recreate on USFS or BLM lands.  Of course Hikers, mtb’ers, etc would throw a fit.

Out west just about every state has a permit that must purchase to ride the trails it's a yearly fee but guess who doesn't have to pay ,the hikers and bicycles and they are taking the trails away from the motorized. If they would work with motorized it would help ,they will be next to lose the right to use the trails it's just a matter of time.It pretty much says it all in the article that Dmac posted. There are states that realize how much money that off road recreation brings in and they welcome you with open arms Kentucky, Michigan, and West Va. and I think Tenn. also is a good state for off road recreation. North Carolina like Ohio has a few areas but they get over used and they have opened some of it up to SXSides which makes it not as inviting to a motorcyclist.

I have no problem paying a fee to ride if it means that it will keep things open but that is slowly going away,politicians find ways to funnel a lot of those fees to other funds.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Huskydog14

[Gatorade88]

Too bad we all can't just be on the same side and work it out. I don't know what it is with some people and being even just a little aggressive. Just know to be kind and friendly to others, even those that have taken from you.

It is too bad that people want to take off-roading from off the face of this planet though.

 

[BOAB]

From the USFS website:

The phrase, “Caring for the Land and Serving People,” captures the Forest Service mission. As set forth in law, the mission is to achieve quality land management under the sustainable multiple-use management concept to meet the diverse needs of people:

From the BLM website:

A MULTIPLE-USE AND SUSTAINED YIELD MISSION 

Congress tasked the BLM with a mandate of managing public lands for a variety of uses such as energy development, livestock grazing, recreation, and timber harvesting while ensuring natural, cultural, and historic resources are maintained for present and future use. 

This multiple-use approach enables our agency to prioritize and advance the President’s priorities which include energy independence, shared conservation stewardship, keeping our borders safe, putting Americans back to work, and serving the American family.

To do this, we manage public lands to maximize opportunities for commercial, recreational, and conservation activities.  This promotes healthy and productive public lands that create jobs in local communities while supporting traditional land uses such as responsible energy development, timber harvesting, grazing, and recreation, including hunting and fishing.

Learn more about our multiple-use approach.

 

Sometimes they need to be reminded of the above.  Every meeting I've ever gone to over the years I've brought this up.  And we need to keep bringing it up while being on our best behavior.

And...I think the rant above is a bit extreme, worst case scenario sort of thing.  But don't believe it can't happen.

[SkinnySarge]

1 hour ago, Huskydog14 said:

Out west just about every state has a permit that must purchase to ride the trails it's a yearly fee but guess who doesn't have to pay ,the hikers and bicycles and they are taking the trails away from the motorized. If they would work with motorized it would help ,they will be next to lose the right to use the trails it's just a matter of time.It pretty much says it all in the article that Dmac posted. There are states that realize how much money that off road recreation brings in and they welcome you with open arms Kentucky, Michigan, and West Va. and I think Tenn. also is a good state for off road recreation. North Carolina like Ohio has a few areas but they get over used and they have opened some of it up to SXSides which makes it not as inviting to a motorcyclist.

I have no problem paying a fee to ride if it means that it will keep things open but that is slowly going away,politicians find ways to funnel a lot of those fees to other funds.

Those are state permits.  I’m suggesting a federal permit for federal lands.  Buy once and use on all fed owned land (except designated wilderness areas, obviously.). The biggest reason for access closure is lack of funds to maintain that access. For instance, I have elk hunted Colorado 5 years in a row and have covered 100’s of miles on atv and on foot.  I have yet to see a game warden or any other type of law enforcement.

Edited August 8, 2019 by SkinnySarge

[76xtdrvr]

6 hours ago, dmac1 said:

Mark my words.
In ten years, we will no longer be able to explore our National Forests or BLM public lands via “motorized” or “mechanized” means, like we enjoy (take for granted) today.

None of us should be complacent , but I've been hearing doomsayer predictions like this since the early '70's. Back then it was mainly noise (Remember "Less Sound = More Ground")? Now it's land erosion, land owner liability, rider lawsuits, encroachment, violating "my special space", land development that was once our favorite riding areas, and the ever-present bad boy dirt bike/quad/SxS stigma that we help perpetuate just by the nature of what we love to do. Lots of riders knock the AMA, but they are the only ones involved with politics and lobbying for land access on a national basis. Yet, they have little support from rank and file riders. There will always be a political tug of war between environmentalists and OHV enthusiasts, but we're our worst enemies. 

[BOAB]

18 minutes ago, 76xtdrvr said:

None of us should be complacent , but I've been hearing doomsayer predictions like this since the early '70's. Back then it was mainly noise (Remember "Less Sound = More Ground")? Now it's land erosion, land owner liability, rider lawsuits, encroachment, violating "my special space", land development that was once our favorite riding areas, and the ever-present bad boy dirt bike/quad/SxS stigma that we help perpetuate just by the nature of what we love to do. Lots of riders knock the AMA, but they are the only ones involved with politics and lobbying for land access on a national basis. Yet, they have little support from rank and file riders. There will always be a political tug of war between environmentalists and OHV enthusiasts, but we're our worst enemies. 

Blue Ribbon Coalition and NOHVCC both are national organizations very much on our side.

[dmac1]

14 hours ago, 76xtdrvr said:

None of us should be complacent , but I've been hearing doomsayer predictions like this since the early '70's. 

Yep....and where are we today vs back then?  Well on our way to everything being closed! I said 'maybe in 20-30 years'. Actually, I think it'll be more like 50 before we get more towards what Jon wrote. Will we 100% get there, not likely, but we are inching there.

No one has brought up the lawsuit issues that Jon raised. Out here in the West, that continually takes place. BOAB knows it all too well, but an area near him is a perfect example of where a special interest has influenced a USFS decision, and now, one of our main (if not THE main moto advocacy group out this way - TPA) has sued the USFS.  I could go on and on with a list of current legal issues the USFS/BLM are juggling....but I'll use only 1 more example:  500 miles of off-road (essentially everything from just SW of Denver, to ~50 miles south of Pueblo, over to Salida and up to Leadville) are currently threated due to lawsuit by 'environmental' groups.  This too will lead to counter-suit.

It will never end as long as all outdoor recreationists remain polarized....and I don't see it ever ending. 

[dmac1]

18 hours ago, SkinnySarge said:

I should add that I am totally for “multi-use” but it seems that as a hunter I am paying a shit load of money for everyone else to use the resource year-round, while I only get to use it for 5 days a year.  Pay up if it is important to you...otherwise, quit complaining.

 

I would be in favor of a “Public Lands Pass” that you would need to purchase to recreate on USFS or BLM lands.  Of course Hikers, mtb’ers, etc would throw a fit.

I concur that hikers, MTBers (I also ride MTBs), equestrians, climbers, dispersed campers, etc are pretty much getting a free pass, but its not just hunters that pay.

As @Huskydog14 pointed out, OHV users out this way have to buy a permit to legally ride trails on public land.  In Colorado, thats $25.25. The $ in Colorado is put to good use (trail creation (yes, some new ST!) and maintenance), but some anti-moto groups have tried to steal the $ in the past and use it for State Park maintenance (they were stopped).

Also, I don't know what % of off-road riders also voluntarily contribute $ to our access advocates (its not nearly enough, whatever it is) but I know it is done. There is also a big ride called the Colorado 500 that is a big fund raiser in support of off-road. Lotsa people do more than me....point being though, its not just hunters that pay to play.

[Colorado^]

25 minutes ago, dmac1 said:

It will never end as long as all outdoor recreationists remain polarized....and I don't see it ever ending. 

The solution is to ban non-motorized users from motorized trails.

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Colorado^

[BOAB]

28 minutes ago, dmac1 said:

Yep....and where are we today vs back then?  Well on our way to everything being closed! I said 'maybe in 20-30 years'. Actually, I think it'll be more like 50 before we get more towards what Jon wrote. Will we 100% get there, not likely, but we are inching there.

No one has brought up the lawsuit issues that Jon raised. Out here in the West, that continually takes place. BOAB knows it all too well, but an area near him is a perfect example of where a special interest has influenced a USFS decision, and now, one of our main (if not THE main moto advocacy group out this way - TPA) has sued the USFS.  I could go on and on with a list of current legal issues the USFS/BLM are juggling....but I'll use only 1 more example:  500 miles of off-road (essentially everything from just SW of Denver, to ~50 miles south of Pueblo, over to Salida and up to Leadville) are currently threated due to lawsuit by 'environmental' groups.  This too will lead to counter-suit.

It will never end as long as all outdoor recreationists remain polarized....and I don't see it ever ending. 

And they have deeper pockets than we do, they always have.

When I was land use chair for the SWFWDA we had an ongoing lawsuit over the closure of the Robledo Mtns. near Las Cruces.  The anti motorized side bled us dry.  We had a very good RS2477 case along with some other issues, but you have to have mighty deep pockets to fight back.

[dmac1]

1 minute ago, BOAB said:

And they have deeper pockets than we do, they always have.

When I was land use chair for the SWFWDA we had an ongoing lawsuit over the closure of the Robledo Mtns. near Las Cruces.  The anti motorized side bled us dry.  We had a very good RS2477 case along with some other issues, but you have to have mighty deep pockets to fight back.

I think they simply outnumber us!  Why more of us don't get involved is frustrating to me, we'd never outnumber all the non-moto folks, but we'd have a better chance.

My theory on part of it is this: 

The thought of Wilderness can elicit some very emotional feelings, especially to someone who is faaar away from it, and it is these feelings that the anti-moto side prey upon when it comes time to raise $$$.

For example, take someone who is unable to personally experience the great outdoors very frequently, one who, maybe took a trip a trip out West 3 years ago and they fondly remember the beauty and solitude and, from their cubicle in an office in the big city, they long to return.  Then, they hear or see some posts from some anti-moto advocates about how, for example, a beautiful area of public land should be designated as Wilderness and they see pictures of all the beauty, and then pictures and/or videos of dirt bikes/ohvs ripping up terrain and, even though they know nothing about the area and have never even actually seen it, they become incensed!

They then reach deep in their pockets to support their cause, and they feel very justified in doing so.

What are we doing in the meantime?  We are out riding and don't know anything about this until the last minute when its almost too late, and since we're so busy and it doesn't seem like a big deal, many of us don't take any action.

Did I just make all that up? Kinda, but its based on what I've seen happen with the Swell and the numerous Red Rock Wilderness bills that were sponsored by congressmen from eastern states, and from what SUWA had on their website in support of said bills. They even had video of a dirt bike riding a legal trail and entitled it "Ripping Riparian". I was incensed when I saw it!!!

As far as the last minute notice aspect, I think that is better now than it used to be, but I still don't hear about some issues until there is only a couple days to comment, so that still goes on.

 A good gauge of the real interest level of Colorado front range riders will come in the next couple months with the '500 mile of off-road' issue. Commenting in support of our sport doesn't cost a dime....just some time, which, as one guy put it:

If we don't take the time now to get involved, we'll have lotsa time later when everything is closed.

 

[SkinnySarge]

55 minutes ago, dmac1 said:

I concur that hikers, MTBers (I also ride MTBs), equestrians, climbers, dispersed campers, etc are pretty much getting a free pass, but its not just hunters that pay.

As @Huskydog14 pointed out, OHV users out this way have to buy a permit to legally ride trails on public land.  In Colorado, thats $25.25. The $ in Colorado is put to good use (trail creation (yes, some new ST!) and maintenance), but some anti-moto groups have tried to steal the $ in the past and use it for State Park maintenance (they were stopped).

Also, I don't know what % of off-road riders also voluntarily contribute $ to our access advocates (its not nearly enough, whatever it is) but I know it is done. There is also a big ride called the Colorado 500 that is a big fund raiser in support of off-road. Lotsa people do more than me....point being though, its not just hunters that pay to play.

Yeah I hear that...we need to get all users paying that $25.25

But, $25 is nothing.  I am paying $661 for a Colorado elk tag this year.  I’m also paying $396 for an antelope tag.  I’m happy to pay it too.

[dmac1]

1 hour ago, SkinnySarge said:

Yeah I hear that...we need to get all users paying that $25.25

But, $25 is nothing.  I am paying $661 for a Colorado elk tag this year.  I’m also paying $396 for an antelope tag.  I’m happy to pay it too.

Thats $1k. Pays off if you're successful in meat to eat, but if you're not, wow, I wonder what the $ is used for.

I agree, $25 is puny. COHVCO membership is $30. A slightly above nominal contribution to another advocacy group $50. Lets call it $100. Seems like a good munimum number for alot of off-roaders to budget annually.

I usually target about your annual hunting costs,...unless a big issue arises. I'm sure many do lots more.