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TTR230 Ultimate build

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So what would be the features your ultimate 230 build would have?

What would it look like?

Hydraulic disc brakes on both ends?

More suspension?

How much seat height is too much?

Edited by ronbuell

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Suppose I hit the first two right off the bat?

Franken-bike a 230 motor into a YZ250F frame that I located..... with the goal of making it single track worthy by lowering the suspension.  I need some recipes for lowering a 2004 YZ250F suspension.

Edited by ronbuell

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Any suspension shop could internally lower you suspension. Very easy. 230 motor in a modern chassis would be a geeat bike.

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And I was wanting a more modern setup but with a stone simple engine.  TTR 6 speed with a low 1st gear, same general light weight, and something that can be a loaner bike with a little more capability too makes sense to me.

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UPDATE:  Making progress on the Project 230.     Need a name for this beast....  help me out here guys.  The idea here is to have a loaner bike than can accept all types of abuse and terrain but not get the rider into too much trouble.  The short legged stock runs out of suspension pretty quickly.

Bones are: Stone stock TTR230 engine and electrical, including airbox.  Simple engine, air cooling system.

Donor frame is 2004 YZ250F frame including all brakes, wheels (yes its still got the 19" rear for the moment) plastics, seat, et al.  This fell into my lap at an incredible price, and I couldn't pass it up.  The 250 engine is listed on eBay now.

Mods so far:  Lowered seat mechanically by moving the top shock mount up and forward approximately 1/4"x1/4".  This does two things: lower seat height by 1" and softer leverage ratio.  Swapped in a complete WR front fork assembly for a softer front end.  I may swap out the rear shock but have the stock shock for now until it get the engine swapped.  WR shock is shorter by a few mm.  Plan is to swap out to 18" rear wheel later.  I will also shorten the front suspension at some point.

Sitting on the finished frame with seat now is awesome... yes its a roller now.  Flatfooted is easy and with knees bent.  Brakes didn't need any work other than I straightened the rotors.

 

Edited by ronbuell

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With suitable donors located, I completed the initial suspension mods on the YZ frame.  It's time to look at the progress so far and packaging issues.  

These pics are just to visually look at the packages side by side.  The plan is to move the engine and airbox to the YZ frame next.  

Rear of the YZ has been lowered by cutting out and moving the shock top mount 1/4" forward and 1/4" up into its original mount on the YZ frame.  This gained about 1.25"-1.5" lower seat compared to stock YZ.  It's still higher than a stock TTR seat though by about 3".  The nice thing is the rate is softened up, so sitting on the YZ drops me down to flat feet and bent knees.  A WR shock is 2-3 mm shorter than a YZ, so I may swap that, and then to gain another 1/2" lowering, go to 18" rear wheel.  

Front suspension is stock '03 WR, nice and plush.  The front YZ wheel was a simple bolt in.  Axle and brakes both line up and bolt right in with no issues.  Forks are moved up in the tree, but can be moved more.  Will experiment.  Controls will be YZ, with no need for the Hot Start.  Donor TTR is a runner and frame will be parted out when done.

The next technical issue is locating the front sprocket where it should be, in line with the rear sprocket; and boring the hole in the rear engine boss large enough to accept the YZ swingarm bolt.  

Once I get the engine in the frame, I'll fab up frame tabs, move the airbox and electrical items.  Last will be to move the exhaust over.

We set another record high today, and its still 96* in the garage, so after sweating just to get these pics, I'm done for this evening.

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Got some garage time this evening ...

Started to pull items off the electrical system first, then the airbox.  Modified the battery box for fit.  The CDI is located on the battery box but the molded plastic case was a poor fit.  So I cut the part that holds the CDI and starter solenoid off.  There is plenty of wire to mount them onto the subframe or another place.    The coil is temporarily mounted on one of the radiator mounts since they aren't used.  The regulator I mounted on the top tube under the tank.  The ignition switch mounted onto the top tree and I zip tied the wire harness rack onto the top tree in the normal location.  I used the kill and start switches from the TTR.

I zip tied the battery box into its location.  It will be permanently mounted with some perf strap to make it strong enough to support the battery weight.  I don't want to weld on the subframe.  (I don't do aluminum very well, no TIG)thumb_IMG_3522_1024.jpg.6a58898b2ab772b846780c52d4841378.jpgthumb_IMG_3523_1024.thumb.jpg.156da44d8f7f5124391d66deec5d687e.jpgthumb_IMG_3525_1024.thumb.jpg.62847f47a542312a670aa8b3e4f661cf.jpgthumb_IMG_3531_1024.jpg.ff0707801a58805b4eb9a77bc585114b.jpgthumb_IMG_3532_1024.thumb.jpg.234aceb463d35e3f3dda1af157640fd7.jpgthumb_IMG_3533_1024.thumb.jpg.92c7795fa3861def604653c59c201415.jpg.  The CDI and solenoid will reside below the seat and above the airbox if there's room.  The airbox will be permanently located once I get the engine into the frame and locate the carb.  I will use perf strap to mount it as well.

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Edited by ronbuell

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Good progress. Interested in seeing how this turns out.  Looks like you need to lean the engine forward to help it clear the frame.

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Yes, that was just a.... "I want to see it in the frame" ... pic.

UPDATE:  Work over the weekend showed that there are several "packaging / design" issues with mating this engine with the YZ frame.  It highlights just how compact and efficient the 250F engine design really is.  Yoshiharu Nakayama did a yeoman's job designing the 250F.  I haven't search the origins of the 230/225/200 as much.  If anyone has links for the history, I'd be interested.

Technical issues I'm working on now include:

1. The tall engine/head design.  The air cooled engine is taller by quite a bit than the 250F.  The front down tube and the brace under the top down tube will both have to be modified.  The YZ uses an oil tank integrated in the front down tube which is efficient and reduces engine height.  Its difficult to see in the last 2 pics above, but there is a bulge out to both sides in the gusset under the cross brace.  That gusset is also part of the oil tank (bulge) and increases oil capacity.  Its not needed for the 230 and has to be removed to make room for the air cooled head and head stay.  So ... I will cut that brace out, along with all of the tank area and up the front down tube.  I haven't decided yet how far up to go with that, but the more I can leave original, the stronger that joint will be.

2.  The next 2 issues cascaded together.  The original 230 design uses an all steel design swingarm.  I haven't posted any pics of that, but it's fairly compact (small diameter).  And compared to the all aluminum designed YZ swingarm, is significantly smaller.  Hence the issue: larger aluminum swingarm at a critical juncture near the rear of the engine cases.  Ah, the engine case.....

3.  The last technical issue to hurdle: The engine still has the bosses for the kick start mechanism on the right side even though there's no kick starter.  The E-Start was one reason for doing the conversion.  The tractor like characteristics of the 230 and the 6 speed tranny being the other attributes I was going for.  The end result is something that will be easy for a novice to ride like the original TTR, but packaged in a more capable frame with good suspension and brakes.

The size of the swingarm at the bolt totally prevents the engine from moving in close enough for the engine boss to line up with the pivot bolt.  The bolt is supposed to goes thru the rear engine boss and thus makes that connection a stable location for the motor, and establishes the location of the countershaft.  The countershaft location is critical.  It must be close to the swingarm to limit or minimize chain slack at full extension and compression of the rear suspension.  It must be high enough to not pull the chain down into the top of the swingarm. 

My original plan was to bore out the hole, run the YZ swingarm bolt in the normal location thru the engine and be done.  That wouldn't work.  Then I looked at the TTR bolt.  Don't have to drill out the rear engine boss.  Already had the bushings for the swingarm so I could use the TTR swingarm bolt.  The YZ bolt is hollow, and the TTR bolt goes thru perfectly like it was made for it.  The IT250/XT250 conversion ran that way fine... was perfect.  That was old school tech though. 

So this idea is now out the window, and a new plan in the works.  The original TTR frame has a lower engine mount and an under engine bolt on frame.

So the new plan...........  Mount tabs on the lower cross brace per TTR frame design to the suspension Lower Link cross brace to locate the rear of the engine forward, and use the thick aluminum skidplate that came with this TTR to stiffen the lower frame there.  This will clear the rear engine boss for the kick start castings ... and the cascade affect will affect the countershaft location, and the head location, and the front down tube and cross brace locations.  And that will force me to make new forward tank mounts, coil mounts... etc. 

I will also fab up a sleeve to go into the location where the rear engine boss would normally go to keep the swingarm bearings located and so you can tighten the swingarm bolt.  That will be tied to the engine at the lower rear bolts by some tabs welded onto the frame.  And I may add a tube or strap under skidplate (undecided).  I don't want this thing to break its back or pull the engine in half.  The engine is already a stressed member like the old XT designs (heavy).  I have a spring tensioner to add and keep the chain taught on it travel to the rear sprocket. The front countshaft will land where ever it lands in the engine placement, and I'll live with it.

The balance of the bike will be moved forward a good bit due to the weight of the engine and moving it forward.  This bike will feel top heavy and steering heavy.... nothing I can do about that.... is what it is.  That's the way the IT250/XT250 turned out as well.  But then, this is a new project, new creation.  Not going to be a TTR or a YZ.  Tractor comes to mind.  Which will be perfect for pulling my single wheel trailer!

Edited by ronbuell
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Finally got some quality garage time today, beautiful outside.  

So progress,... I cut out the front down tube and front cross member to make room for the head, and I've fabricated a new down tube.  Got some detail shots of the rear of the engine on the right side where there is interference, but its difficult to see, so I won't post.  That spot is causing some issues.  There is not way to get the engine back any farther.  So I'll just move it forward some.  I don't want to try to move the rear linkage mount since that will affect the rear suspension.  Take a peak, let me know what you think of the progress so far.

Second pic shows front sprocket alignment.  I can align it side to side and up and down and still keep it in the "engine compartment".

 

 

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Slight progress today, ... missed last week.  I'm being careful and snugging the engine as close as possible to the lower cross-frame rail.  This brings the sprocket as close as possible to the swingarm bolt.  I also have to center the sprocket for the chain run to line up with the rear sprocket.  I'm using the rubber chain slider block to help me do that by placing a welding rod in the groove the chain cut in the slider... points right to the sprocket.  Checking inside and outside chain run to get side-to-side alignment.  Plan is to get the motor mounts secured to the frame this weekend and get chain alignment, carb spacing and alignment, and airbox spacing and alignment done.  Also get the front down-tube secured and welded into location.  This TTR had a heavy aluminum skid plate in place of the lower engine cradle.  So I plan to re-use it.

I Cut out the upper head stay mount off of the frame to get space for the air cooled head.  New mounts will be fab'd in a different location.  A new upper cross member will be fab'd up for the head stay, and a strap will bolt to it and the head.  A new cross bar has to be installed to keep from breaking the frame's back.  Cutting it out also gets clearance for the carb top and the throttle cable mounts on the carb.  The cables runs on the opposite side of the frame on the TTR carb. 

I'm also checking the airbox clearance and air boot reach to the carb.  The airbox can go into the original location, but the reach is a little short... less than an inch.  I plan to connect it by short pipe run if needed and use a clamp on the carb and on the boot.  At least it lines up close.  There may be slight rubbing of the shock spring on the airbox, but will have to be tolerated.

First pic below is from a 2005 WR250F and shows the location of the front sprocket in relation to the swingarm bolt.  Second pic is of the TTR engine in the YZ frame, then a close up for front sprocket location comparison.  As you can see, distance from the bolt is an issue I can't fix.  I can drop it down slightly.  You can also see the rear engine boss that the swingarm bolt is supposed to go thru. 

One idea I'm considering is cutting the mount in half vertically along the length of the hole.  That would allow me to remove the sleeve, and possible move the engine to the rear a little more if the frame down at the linkage would allow it.  My hope is I might only have to cut that cross member in half, keep the piece I cut out, flip it inside out, and weld it back into place.  Idea being that would retain member strength and allow clearance for the kickstart boss that is still cast into the engine case.... wish me luck

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Got some work in between other projects today.  Front down tube is in place and rear lower tabs are ready to be welded up once everything is checked for center alignment.  Here are the pics.... a lotta work here.    The tank has some internal baffling that has to be removed in order to install the new down tube.  You'll notice the front down tube is now holding the engine in place.  Looks good holding itself up!

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by ronbuell
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Another episode on the Ultimate Build TTR230 project.

The motor mounts are now welded into the frame.  Decision on the rear motor mount was to not butcher the boss on the motor.  If I need to swap motors at some point, I don't want to have to butcher another set of case halves.  I'll just live with the distance from the swing arm pivot and any consequences.

Here's some pics of today's progress.  Pretty pleased with it so far.  I got the engine located in the frame with head clearance.  I got the top cross member welded in, so its not going to break its back.  Got the front down tube welded in. Got the lower frame tabs welded in.  Got the Carb installed and clearanced so the throttle cables will install.  The issues after that are mounting the airbox and a short extension from the carb to the boot.   Then tabs to hold the air box and battery box in place.  I did lay up the header pipe and will only need to bend the pipe and add some tabs for mounts.  The lower right side where the kick start was, I had to clearance the frame a little.  Over all, it was a good day in the garage!

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2 more pics.  Got the upper motor mount finished and showing the chain / sprocket location with chain in place.  Moving the bike around in the garage, the bike actually feels light.  Hope that's a sign of things to come.

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Edited by ronbuell

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Finally... it feels like I'm turning the corner on the TTR230 build.  How about naming it: TTZ230?    Got some packaging issues squared away and actually had one item almost work out.

Took some time with another engine "pull-out"  "put-back"  session to get some finish welding done on the lower rear motor mounts and the front down tube mounts.  I had left the front mount loose so it would move left-right to achieve proper centering.  I also finish welded the top motor mount and cross member.  That one is critical for frame strength on the tube under the tank.  It also serves as place to mount some of the electrical items like the coil.  I have to make a coil mount which shouldn't take long.  At this point someone is asking why I didn't just harvest the mount off the stock 230 frame.  I'd rather leave it usable for another person. 

The battery box / starter solenoid /  CDI mount is handled along with the air box and even the carb bell extension.  I used some welding rod and just bent some loops to mount to the air box.  Then I ran the wire up to the subframe where there were 2 threaded inserts under the seat.  That air box is held solid now.  Now for some pics.

First pic, motor in the frame almost looks factory.... clean.

Second pic shows stock header pipe with plenty of clearance mounting in the stock position.

Third pic shows the FMF Q4 in place.  have to fab couple of mounts, but pretty much looks like the stock YZ muffler and in the "relative" proper location.  The subframe mounts don't line up, so something will have to be done there.

Next is the stock TTR230 coil mount on the stock frame.  Will have to make that.

 So at his point I'm thinking how the stock seat and tank would look.  The YZ seat and tank will ultimately be used, but this view is a version I may test-ride.

Last pic is difficult to see, but shows the top of the air box with solenoid.  There is about an inch between the CDI and air box opening.

Last pic shows pipe extension on the crankcase vent tube.

 

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