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mick34

Monster cup Alessi on yz325

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32 minutes ago, mog said:

They made a few sizes and had factory bikes

No MX class to run them in.  

A 380 isn't going to be any advantage in Hard Enduro either, where 2Ts are still raced at the factory level.

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No MX class to run them in.  
A 380 isn't going to be any advantage in Hard Enduro either, where 2Ts are still raced at the factory level.
They ran them against the 500 2 strokes

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And this is some evidance where a Dyno ( with a good operator ) did an amazing job of finding a good setup ,where the rider could not , ultimately the product wasn't great ,but Derek got it to function and found major hp compared to how it was delivered

My Dyno guy has done lots of bikes where it should have made big power and didn't ,and he often found lots of power hiding within bad setups

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For that kit, it would have to be power delivery over outright power for me.  Those bikes don't need more horsepower.  That's why the 500 died out. It kept getting pushed to stupid levels. 

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10 hours ago, NormalZ said:

Eddie Sanders Racing has been around for 25 years...

Oh that ESR

Thank you ,saw you posted that rite after I asked.

One of those DUHHH moments 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mog said:

Derek got it to function and found major hp compared to how it was delivered 

He had an interesting comment about dyno results though:

"I've learned that what the dyno says below 6000 at WOT is nearly irrelevant on a 250.

Nobody is WOT in those areas... but what the bike does at 1/8 1/4 and 1/2 throttle does matter and is what is felt."

Edited by redrider144
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3 hours ago, mog said:

They made a few sizes and had factory bikes

And the 360 and the 380 were pretty bad. One of their factory riders left his factory 360 broken down in the woods and walked out. He hated the bike from its inception. 

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Posted (edited)

Another notable comment from Derek:

"The Ktm [300] with minor porting... And I do mean minor, will make 58 hp easily. I think i could get 60 with 2 days tuning and tweaking also very easy. It does so with a massive low end power making it really impressive. So 72mm can get way better... But it needs good base architecture... Which the Ktm has. The Ktm 300 is its own designed casting... Not an overbore 250."

Edited by redrider144
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He had an interesting comment about dyno results though:
"I've learned that what the dyno says below 6000 at WOT is nearly irrelevant on a 250.
Nobody is WOT in those areas... but what the bike does at 1/8 1/4 and 1/2 throttle does matter and is what is felt."
And that's why my guy spends so long on those parts ,more than at 100%
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1 hour ago, OUTERLIMITS said:

For that kit, it would have to be power delivery over outright power for me.  Those bikes don't need more horsepower.  That's why the 500 died out. It kept getting pushed to stupid levels. 

I know that's what is often stated, but I don't think it's true.  The bikes all made enough power that all the development funds were diverted to other models until Suzuki and Yamaha had nothing to compete with.  They were still using 70s technology while Kawasaki was using a water cooled power valved engine and USD forks.  Honda had a cast iron bore and no power valves but at least they were water cooled.  Suzuki and Yamaha compaigned to have the class dropped.  It was cost cutting, peak power isn't over the top on these bikes.  I still have a 490 Maico and a 2006 KXF450 frame with the 500 2T engine in it.  Some pretty fast pros you've seen in main events on TV have put some damn fast laps in on the KX with one hell of a grin on their face when they pulled in too!

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20 minutes ago, mxaniac said:

I know that's what is often stated, but I don't think it's true.  The bikes all made enough power that all the development funds were diverted to other models until Suzuki and Yamaha had nothing to compete with.  They were still using 70s technology while Kawasaki was using a water cooled power valved engine and USD forks.  Honda had a cast iron bore and no power valves but at least they were water cooled.  Suzuki and Yamaha compaigned to have the class dropped.  It was cost cutting, peak power isn't over the top on these bikes.  I still have a 490 Maico and a 2006 KXF450 frame with the 500 2T engine in it.  Some pretty fast pros you've seen in main events on TV have put some damn fast laps in on the KX with one hell of a grin on their face when they pulled in too!

Bottom line is they were not selling, no one wanted them.  I bought a new '82 CR480 in '83 and a new '82 YZ490 in '84, each of them for about 1/2 of MSRP.  People wanted 250's and 125's.  At that time they were already near the end of their useful lives.  When Yamaha came out with the 400F and Honda the 450R, it was pretty much game over for the 500's, Honda just knew it before Kawasaki, Yamaha and Suzuki knew it before both of them. KTM went to a 380 in hopes of finding middle ground, but middle ground was smaller still.  300-350 with a mild tune seems to be the best of all worlds as far as increasing the types of venues that they are useful in.   I have no doubt that 300cc 2-strokes are the best tool in the shed for off road enduro/trail type riding. 

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1 minute ago, OUTERLIMITS said:

Bottom line is they were not selling, no one wanted them.  I bought a new '82 CR480 in '83 and a new '82 YZ490 in '84, each of them for about 1/2 of MSRP.  People wanted 250's and 125's.  At that time they were already near the end of their useful lives.  When Yamaha came out with the 400F and Honda the 450R, it was pretty much game over for the 500's, Honda just knew it before Kawasaki, Yamaha and Suzuki knew it before both of them. KTM went to a 380 in hopes of finding middle ground, but middle ground was smaller still.  300-350 with a mild tune seems to be the best of all worlds as far as increasing the types of venues that they are useful in.   I have no doubt that 300cc 2-strokes are the best tool in the shed for off road enduro/trail type riding. 

Well it is pretty hard to sell a race bike when you don't have a class to race it in.  Kind of like selling refrigerators to Eskimos.  It's a bit chicken and egg, perhaps it was market demand or perhaps it was corporate cost cutting making a smaller market.  Probably both.  I do agree that a smaller 2T is a better woods weapon.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OUTERLIMITS said:

300-350 with a mild tune seems to be the best of all worlds as far as increasing the types of venues that they are useful in.   I have no doubt that 300cc 2-strokes are the best tool in the shed for off road enduro/trail type riding. 

A KTM 300 is apparently capable of 58 hp easily.  I'd say that's the best 2T displacement.  (72 x 72)

Increasing stroke is just going to pack the powerband inside a narrower rpm range.

Edited by redrider144
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1 hour ago, OUTERLIMITS said:

Bottom line is they were not selling, no one wanted them.  I bought a new '82 CR480 in '83 and a new '82 YZ490 in '84, each of them for about 1/2 of MSRP.  People wanted 250's and 125's.  At that time they were already near the end of their useful lives.  When Yamaha came out with the 400F and Honda the 450R, it was pretty much game over for the 500's, Honda just knew it before Kawasaki, Yamaha and Suzuki knew it before both of them. KTM went to a 380 in hopes of finding middle ground, but middle ground was smaller still.  300-350 with a mild tune seems to be the best of all worlds as far as increasing the types of venues that they are useful in.   I have no doubt that 300cc 2-strokes are the best tool in the shed for off road enduro/trail type riding. 

Except times change. The vast majority of bikes never see a MX track or are even raced. They might be trail ridden or a dune blaster, or even converted into a snowbike for wintertime! For snowbiking or dune blasting, I’m of the opinion that a modern 500 two smoker would be far better than a 250/300.

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1 hour ago, redrider144 said:

A KTM 300 is apparently capable of 58 hp easily.  I'd say that's the best 2T displacement.  (72 x 72)

Increasing stroke is just going to pack the powerband inside a narrower rpm range.

Other than for an outdoor mx or desert race, I just can't see 58 hp being something that should be targeted on a 2-stroke.   What is the stock hp on a 300?

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, OUTERLIMITS said:

Other than for an outdoor mx or desert race, I just can't see 58 hp being something that should be targeted on a 2-stroke.   What is the stock hp on a 300?

Well "stock" is deceiving.  Totally stock from showroom '17+ 300 XC is in a detuned state.  It's like 43 hp on a good day.

Lets pretend that a stock fictional 300 SX makes 50 hp.

Edited by redrider144

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43 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

Well "stock" is deceiving.  Totally stock from showroom '17+ 300 XC is in a detuned state.  It's like 43 hp on a good day.

Lets pretend that a stock fictional 300 SX makes 50 hp.

43 is more than enough for off road and single track.

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5 minutes ago, OUTERLIMITS said:

43 is more than enough for off road and single track.

Says you, the self appointed authority on what is enough power.

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6 hours ago, redrider144 said:

Another notable comment from Derek:

"The Ktm [300] with minor porting... And I do mean minor, will make 58 hp easily. I think i could get 60 with 2 days tuning and tweaking also very easy. It does so with a massive low end power making it really impressive. So 72mm can get way better... But it needs good base architecture... Which the Ktm has. The Ktm 300 is its own designed casting... Not an overbore 250."

Wonder if he means just cleaning up the casting marks

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