Battery, again.

[Ben500RR-S]

I got a new battery in August of 2018.  AGM from Batteries Plus. 

I had gone through a front harness swap and then a full 2019+ harness swap.  The bike also went through last winter as a snowbike.  

 

I had the FI light on the past 2-3 rides.  I went through most all the connections last night and then had to jumpstart the bike and when I did, the FI light went off.  I thought that it was just a weak battery so I charged it all night and this morning, the battery could not start the bike.

 

I'm going to get a new battery tonight and see if it solves the FI light and the no-start without a jump pack.  

[bradje]

scares me away from the Italian brand sometimes...

[ROWEBOT3339]

Voltage?

Why AGM not LiFePO4?

[DentonC]

I'm sure you do this anyway from reading your other topics, but I was told I need to keep mine on a trickle charger when not in use to keep the bike running properly. 

[FORMA MOTO]

A true AGM battery will need to be twice the Ah rating of a Lithium one to get the same results / life span

You get 1-3 years out of Li batteries before something comes un-soldered inside the case. Typically the batteries inside last 3-5 years, but the connections to each battery fail.

AGM needs to be TWICE the amp hours and CCA of a Li or you will wear it out. Only 50% of the available energy inside an AGM battery is readily available, and if it falls below a normal charge rate, that number drops quickly.

You cannot fit a battery that big in your bike.................

So, getting one year is about right, as they are not really recommended for off road use where the starts per day can exceed 25 times, easily...... and the charging availability is far more limited (above 3800 rpms for at least 3 min before proper charging takes place) than on a street bike. 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by KRAYNIAL

[Ben500RR-S]

Odd, as today was in the 50's for a change as last week the bike had sat as it had snowed about 20" last Monday and Tuesday.

The bike fired right up on the battery, I suspect because it was warm out as every other night for at least the past 2-4 weeks, as it is cold when I get out of work, I need to jump-pack the battery to get the bike to start as when I ride in the morning with the headlight on-so I have less chance of getting hit on the way in to work, and with the heated gloves on, and the distance to get to work, it does not allow the battery to get a charge at all, thus the jump pack requirement. 

When I started the bike tonight, the FI light had stayed on again but as the idle was hanging, about 1/4 of the way home, I had stopped, shut the motor off, and then restarted the bike and VIOLA!, the FI light shut itself off.  I wonder if the FI light is voltage related?

If the AGM will no longer take a charge, like tonight, I have it on a trickle charge-if the motor will not fire in the morning, I'll know that the AGM battery is depleted and that I'll need a new one for $65 at BatteriesPlus. 

 

 

[ROWEBOT3339]

The FI light will come on if voltage is low. It happened to me in the garage one night after doing my valve check and I about killed the battery turning the engine over watching the oil jets. Bike just barely started and ran funny. I didn't touch the throttle, figured id do a soft reset. After I let it run till hot, I did a few quick restarts and it fired up like normal and light went away. It is likely just the ecu seeing a voltage that is out of range. I suppose if its starving for fuel the knock sensor might be able to tell the ecu there is an issue, but without oxygen sensors there aren't too many inputs to tell the ecu there is a problem.

After doing my wiring harness my fan and light can run at the same time and not affect battery voltage. light is 32 watts, fan is 50 watts.

How many watts are your heated gloves?

Heated gloves wired directly to the battery?

[bradje]

man - so does a fella need to be worried about 2020 model year and these issues?

Also, I see FI light mentioned alot - does FI stand for Fuel Injection in this case or?

 

[FORMA MOTO]

15 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Odd, as today was in the 50's for a change as last week the bike had sat as it had snowed about 20" last Monday and Tuesday.

The bike fired right up on the battery, I suspect because it was warm out as every other night for at least the past 2-4 weeks, as it is cold when I get out of work, I need to jump-pack the battery to get the bike to start as when I ride in the morning with the headlight on-so I have less chance of getting hit on the way in to work, and with the heated gloves on, and the distance to get to work, it does not allow the battery to get a charge at all, thus the jump pack requirement. 

When I started the bike tonight, the FI light had stayed on again but as the idle was hanging, about 1/4 of the way home, I had stopped, shut the motor off, and then restarted the bike and VIOLA!, the FI light shut itself off.  I wonder if the FI light is voltage related?

If the AGM will no longer take a charge, like tonight, I have it on a trickle charge-if the motor will not fire in the morning, I'll know that the AGM battery is depleted and that I'll need a new one for $65 at BatteriesPlus. 

 

 

Unless you measure your voltage, all this conversation is just conjecture.

Yes, the entire bike is 'voltage related' and wants to see a MINIMUM of 12.7 volts at all times.  If it falls below that, all the chips in the ECU will act strangely. 

Why the hell are you buying these crap batteries ?  

https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-801/

[Doc_d]

It could be you just had a poor quality battery or it could be that your charging system isn't doing a good job of keeping the battery charged.  Lead Acid batteries are pretty tough but they do not like to be repeatedly discharged to very low levels.  It might be worth putting a meter on and verify what kind of voltage the battery is seeing at idle and cruise RPMs.

I could be wrong but I think on a Beta you can disconnect the battery after the bike is running.  Can someone verify that's a correct assumption?   So if there isn't enough voltage after it's running, that's a charging system issue I would think.

Doc

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Doc_d

[Ben500RR-S]

16 minutes ago, KRAYNIAL said:

Unless you measure your voltage, all this conversation is just conjecture.

Yes, the entire bike is 'voltage related' and wants to see a MINIMUM of 12.7 volts at all times.  If it falls below that, all the chips in the ECU will act strangely. 

Why the hell are you buying these crap batteries ?  

https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-801/

I did not ride this morning due to the snow but if the trickle charger I have on the AGM right now does not allow me to start the bike, I'll know that the battery is shot.  

 

I'll go home and see if the bike will start as will have been trickle charging for 24 hours.  

 

I have been noticing that even after trickle charging, the battery does not spin the engine like it used to.  The battery has to be on the way out.  

 

After thinking about it, between the insane hot temps we get in the summer, then the extreme cold we have in the winter, that it has to be tough on the little 7-series battery.  

 

I will hope that if I get a new battery I'll be good for another year or so and know that 1.5 years out of an AGM is about all I can ask for the little-thing.  

Edited December 11, 2019 by Ben500RR-S

[Ben500RR-S]

11 hours ago, Josh Rowe said:

The FI light will come on if voltage is low. It happened to me in the garage one night after doing my valve check and I about killed the battery turning the engine over watching the oil jets. Bike just barely started and ran funny. I didn't touch the throttle, figured id do a soft reset. After I let it run till hot, I did a few quick restarts and it fired up like normal and light went away. It is likely just the ecu seeing a voltage that is out of range. I suppose if its starving for fuel the knock sensor might be able to tell the ecu there is an issue, but without oxygen sensors there aren't too many inputs to tell the ecu there is a problem.

After doing my wiring harness my fan and light can run at the same time and not affect battery voltage. light is 32 watts, fan is 50 watts.

How many watts are your heated gloves?

Heated gloves wired directly to the battery?

I think I had read that the Hotwired heated gloves are a 5W draw, or something like that. 

 

The gloves are ring-terminaled to the battey. 

 

With both the headlight on and the gloves plugged in on the short 4.5 mile ride into work, the bike will not start on the battery when I get out of work 5-9 hours later.  

 

I can understand that there just is not enough positive happening between the output of the engine and what is coming out of the battery/system and that I probably just need a new battery.  

 

The bike has been running pretty awesome otherwise with right around 5,300 miles and 292 hours(and time for an oil change as last change was at 272 hours).  

[Ben500RR-S]

18 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

It could be you just had a poor quality battery or it could be that your charging system isn't doing a good job of keeping the battery charged.  Lead Acid batteries are pretty tough but they do not like to be repeatedly discharged to very low levels.  It might be worth putting a meter on and verify what kind of voltage the battery is seeing at idle and cruise RPMs.

I could be wrong but I think on a Beta you can disconnect the battery after the bike is running.  Can someone verify that's a correct assumption?   So if there isn't enough voltage after it's running, that's a charging system issue I would think.

Doc

 

I have the voltage up on the Voyager, each and every ride and watch the voltage rise and fall with each variable the system is faced with.  

Simply put, when the Baja Designs Squadron Pro is on, and the heated gloves are run, the 12.5 to 12.8V is not enough to charge the battery.  

 

Problem must just be a worn out AGM that does not have the amperage it used to when new as I have worn it out.  

I have to bite it and get a new one.  Maybe tonight. 

[ROWEBOT3339]

3 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

I think I had read that the Hotwired heated gloves are a 5W draw, or something like that. 

The gloves are ring-terminaled to the battey. 

With both the headlight on and the gloves plugged in on the short 4.5 mile ride into work, the bike will not start on the battery when I get out of work 5-9 hours later.  

 

do they look like these?

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/hotwired-12v-heated-gloves

those are 22 watts. which should not be draining the battery, assuming your battery isn't toast and your charging circuit is working properly. 

test voltage at battery with bike running

[Ben500RR-S]

1 hour ago, bradje said:

man - so does a fella need to be worried about 2020 model year and these issues?

Also, I see FI light mentioned alot - does FI stand for Fuel Injection in this case or?

 

Here is the big-thing, as most do not and have not, done what I have done to this 2017 500 RR-S;

 

 

Most do not run the Baja Designs Squadron Pro headlight.  

Most don't run heated gloves.  

Most do not run in the cold, leave the bike, outside in 10-30 degree F-temps and try and start up after 6-8 hours after work, in the dark. 

 

I'll admit that it is the climate extremes that have made things a lot harder for me, otherwise, the bike runs, and continues to run- awesome.  

[Ben500RR-S]

2 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

do they look like these?

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/hotwired-12v-heated-gloves

those are 22 watts. which should not be draining the battery, assuming your battery isn't toast and your charging circuit is working properly. 

test voltage at battery with bike running

Yes, those are the ones.  

 

22 Watts.  

 

Seems like a good amount, coupled with the 40W I have read that the Squadron Pro uses, does no favors to the charging system.  

[ROWEBOT3339]

2 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Simply put, when the Baja Designs Squadron Pro is on, and the heated gloves are run, the 12.5 to 12.8V is not enough to charge the battery.  

I'm not saying your battery isn't toast, but I will say without question the bike produces plenty of current to support 40 watts lights and 22 watts of heat.

Sounds like you need to do the harness work. Like I said, my voltage is at 13.7 at the battery with a 82 watt continuous demand on the system.

[ROWEBOT3339]

3 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Most do not run in the cold, leave the bike, outside in 10-30 degree F-temps and try and start up after 6-8 hours after work, in the dark. 

I'll admit that it is the climate extremes that have made things a lot harder for me, otherwise, the bike runs, and continues to run- awesome.  

your usage is very corrosion prone. 

The LiFePO4 batteries do great in the cold, you just have to know how to warm them up. They hold way more energy than an AMG per volume and per unit weight. 

[Ben500RR-S]

5 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

I'm not saying your battery isn't toast, but I will say without question the bike produces plenty of current to support 40 watts lights and 22 watts of heat.

Sounds like you need to do the harness work. Like I said, my voltage is at 13.7 at the battery with a 82 watt continuous demand on the system.

I had replaced the front harness(for services), August 2018.  

 

I had just replaced the entire wiring harness with the upgraded 2019 harness withOUT the diode packs that used to live by the air filter.  

 

My running voltage went from 13.2-13.4 MAX, to 13.8-14.3V with the new harness and the voltage has NOT changed since day 1 of the harness swap which I had completed sometime early this past summer.  

 

I think the battery is just worn out as it is small and must have at least 200 hours on it.  

[Ben500RR-S]

4 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

your usage is very corrosion prone. 

The LiFePO4 batteries do great in the cold, you just have to know how to warm them up. They hold way more energy than an AMG per volume and per unit weight. 

The complete, new-harness, has maybe 6 months on it, so far, but is now paired with an AGM battery from BatteriesPlus-their Xtreme AGM for $64.99 with %-off for ordering online-ha!  

As the complete, new harness was going in, every connection was di-electric greased and verified as seated many-many times.