Battery, again.

[Hannibal Babar]

3 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

Yea I realised after the fact how old that was ?

It's that time of year again anyways.

4 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

Yea I realised after the fact how old that was ?

It's that time of year again anyways.

12 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I bought a skyrich lithium and it caught fire and burned in the middle of a 3 hour hare scrambles with my Beta 525 rs. . Im lucky it didn’t continue burning the rest of the bike. I didn’t know it had caught fire till after the race. I knew my bike started to boil during the race and the fan stopped working . It’s another reason I stopped using lithium batteries. I have used a couple of shorais and other high end lithiums. It was a waste of money in my case. Besides spending twice as much as an agm battery or more and the lead acid batteries lasting just as long or longer.. Besides whatever improvements to wiring or whatever for the 5 or 6 yr old efi 4 stroke Beta Id get a capacitor and a kicker as well. If a battery dies with 5-6 yr old 4 t carbed Betas then it’s one or 2 kicks and Im still riding all day. That’s how it is with mu 525 rs and 12 350 race. 

my bad, I must stop using a small android phone in my garage... wrong pic, about lithium, was not the point... sorry....

And for the record ALL lifepo4 batteries are same inside.. jmt, skyrich, etc.... even design and battery controller are same...

the two advantages of lifepo4 are light weight and fast charge ( around 80 % in a couple of minutes ). But for any use  under 5 degrees Celsius, I totally agree it's a no way.... 

[Hannibal Babar]

What 's funny is that the charging system of bikes is for lead acid batteries, rather "primitive". 

Of course, no floating mainetnance chargeis  required, running bike, etc ...

Using lifepo4  needs more than  13.5 volts  to charge. An ideal charging tension for them is  14.2 volts. It is said not to go over 4.2 v per cell

 Main pb with ordinary chargers ( assuming you don't used desulfation) is that even if they are " intelligent", we tend to plug them too long... a few minute are enough to get  80 % of charge. Then the 20% are more complicated to get , and yes a dedicated charger is needed in this case. but frankly, these 20 % are not worth it... And Lifepo4  must not be stocked at full charge....

theory of perfect lifepo4 charge is : fixed intensity until cell reaches 3.60 volts. then intensity must drop until  0.05C is reached. The  stop charge . Cells after some time should have in between 3.35 and 3.38 volts.... So you can test your charger,and  check intensity drop  with a good multimeter ?  

 to be short and not rocket science : an ordinary non de-sulfate process charger for acid leadf will work, a slog as it sends less than  15 volts. Unplug it after  a few minutes.  That's the most difficult thing for most people  who are so used to let a battery charge for hours....

and don't think the lifepo4  battery voltage will give you good indication of its charge. It's a flat curve until it drops suddenly when discharged... IMHO ( not considering use in very cold T°) it's really the ain pain in ass of this technology....

You even can't know if battery is good or not with a voltmeter on your bike. As some report ( and i had it too ) you can have a solid  14.2 volts, stop the bike and have juice for one start of one second.... then battery will drop to  her knees at 9 volts and ciao bella batteria...    no warning... same for mecanical destruction inside elements. You will still se a good voltage but internal resistance will be higher than a first time rider pushed on the starting line of Enduro Romaniac ?

for the record, you can look at pic of my lifepo4. she was still showing a glorious  14.2 volts....

agian, there is tons of litterature about LIFEPO4 on web  , surely better explained .   Have good rides. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Hannibal Babar

[Ben500RR-S]

I'm sure I have mentioned this, probably a few times now as I can repeat myself but, I did get a new AGM from BatteriesPlusbulbs in August of 2019.  

I had replaced both my front and rear/main harness' with Beta's 2019+ revised/improved harness that has eliminated the diodes/capacitors-whatever, and since I had done all that, other than the nights I'd get out of work, and the temps were in the single digits that night and I'd have to use a jump pack, but otherwise, hot, cold, I've had no problems since I had installed the new harness.  

If I had any sort of issue, I'd get that upgraded piggyback harness and put it right on but as I've been good for some time now, I'll wait for a problem first.  

[hawaiidirtrider]

9 hours ago, Hannibal Babar said:

my bad, I must stop using a small android phone in my garage... wrong pic, about lithium, was not the point... sorry....

And for the record ALL lifepo4 batteries are same inside.. jmt, skyrich, etc.... even design and battery controller are same...

the two advantages of lifepo4 are light weight and fast charge ( around 80 % in a couple of minutes ). But for any use  under 5 degrees Celsius, I totally agree it's a no way.... 

Just saying my experience for a variety of bikes. I spent easy over a grand in lithium batteries if a variety of top brands shorai etc. easy 5 or 6 over a period of around 7 years ? and I got agm batteries as well with 3 bikes with estart. Everyone can get whatever they like. The last agm battery I bought I got from this kind of big local battery company  sells batteries for just about everything called Battery Bill. He didn’t carry lithium and I asked why and he explained they had more risk of catching fire. Well my skyrich actually did burn.   just a real experience side note with this brand  happened on my Beta. I don’t know how it might affect others or not but it happened to me. Im just using agm now as it’s cheap and have lasted as long as expensive lithium for  me. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by hawaiidirtrider

[Hannibal Babar]

27 minutes ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Just saying my experience for a variety of bikes. I spent easy over a grand in lithium batteries if a variety of top brands shorai etc. easy 5 or 6 over a period of around 7 years ? and I got agm batteries as well with 3 bikes with estart. Everyone can get whatever they like. The last agm battery I bought I got from this kind of big local battery company  sells batteries for just about everything called Battery Bill. He didn’t carry lithium and I asked why and he explained they had more risk of catching fire. Well my skyrich actually did burn.   just a real experience side note with this brand  happened on my Beta. I don’t know how it might affect others or not but it happened to me.

same for me, but with an...ordinary lead acid battery ! just had time to pull it out of bike, ran it and throw it far away . It stared to inflate, inflate until ... ?

It is said that lifepo4 are not concerned about fire, like pure ion lithium ones,  but overcharge still  just make them explode. More than 15 volts for a long period and here we go ? well more like a pile of cards , wich is way they are built. Had work in boats electronics on FRench Riveria , and the purelead, the cobalt, the calcium and whatever techonlogy, it was sometimes a mess in the engine place and a dangerous job, believe me !  Whatever skyrich, JMt or others it's all the same brand, and the Battery controller used inside them is nearly a joke...  A high sell price/ high profit for a very cheap product to do now....  the nsecure side would be to assemble 4S/ 4P 18650 cells , models with integrated protection but rather expensive !!!! the balancing process , if done when joinging them in serial /, parallel, is bullshit when in use... We are a lot to have tested the offest of each cell, it's nothing.... More important is the current and overvoltage protection, for sure.... 

In your case, maybe the cheap glue they put to fix the battery in the really bigger plastic case  has gone and there was hit and break or touching the controler at top inside...  glad you didn't loose bike or had injury ....

For the record the serie 7 agm I got is said to be  6 amp / 140 cranck cold amp  which is eqaul or better than the lifepo4 serie  5...  ok less voltage and as i =UR and resistance of our harness can be high, the better higher voltage to compensate it, the better . I'm still surprised about bikes who can't start under 14 volts.. means a lot about harness wires resistance...

I started mine a few times at  12.40 , as i was working, engine off, on additional lights and sucked a bit the battery. No problem, not the fastest crancking, but bike always started after one sec,  two max.   these lifepo 4 for sure spin the starter like mad, but in Turkey mountains, I prefer to have a battery which i can  easily replace when shit hits the fan ... ( for us, "when mud hits the cooling fan  ? ), even if it's a lazy one  . As we can put a bigger serie 7 AGM , I accept the inconvenience of more weight.  lifepo4 HJTZ5S-FP-SW1 is 0. 494kg  , YTZ7s-bs AGM is 2 kg 187....

Edited December 20, 2020 by Hannibal Babar

[hawaiidirtrider]

1 hour ago, Hannibal Babar said:

same for me, but with an...ordinary lead acid battery ! just had time to pull it out of bike, ran it and throw it far away . It stared to inflate, inflate until ... ?

It is said that lifepo4 are not concerned about fire, like pure ion lithium ones,  but overcharge still  just make them explode. More than 15 volts for a long period and here we go ? well more like a pile of cards , wich is way they are built. Had work in boats electronics on FRench Riveria , and the purelead, the cobalt, the calcium and whatever techonlogy, it was sometimes a mess in the engine place and a dangerous job, believe me !  Whatever skyrich, JMt or others it's all the same brand, and the Battery controller used inside them is nearly a joke...  A high sell price/ high profit for a very cheap product to do now....  the nsecure side would be to assemble 4S/ 4P 18650 cells , models with integrated protection but rather expensive !!!! the balancing process , if done when joinging them in serial /, parallel, is bullshit when in use... We are a lot to have tested the offest of each cell, it's nothing.... More important is the current and overvoltage protection, for sure.... 

In your case, maybe the cheap glue they put to fix the battery in the really bigger plastic case  has gone and there was hit and break or touching the controler at top inside...  glad you didn't loose bike or had injury ....

For the record the serie 7 agm I got is said to be  6 amp / 140 cranck cold amp  which is eqaul or better than the lifepo4 serie  5...  ok less voltage and as i =UR and resistance of our harness can be high, the better higher voltage to compensate it, the better . I'm still surprised about bikes who can't start under 14 volts.. means a lot about harness wires resistance...

I started mine a few times at  12.40 , as i was working, engine off, on additional lights and sucked a bit the battery. No problem, not the fastest crancking, but bike always started after one sec,  two max.   these lifepo 4 for sure spin the starter like mad, but in Turkey mountains, I prefer to have a battery which i can  easily replace when shit hits the fan ... ( for us, "when mud hits the cooling fan  ? ), even if it's a lazy one  . As we can put a bigger serie 7 AGM , I accept the inconvenience of more weight.  lifepo4 HJTZ5S-FP-SW1 is 0. 494kg  , YTZ7s-bs AGM is 2 kg 187....

Well now I will look at this lifepo . I have  another battery to look and read about. I got an agm battery now but this is an ongoing story looking for improvements as going on.  If things go wrong I kick to start . But better newer batteries I feel will come with further development.
Thanks.

Edited December 20, 2020 by hawaiidirtrider

[LukeBrinkerhoff]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:33 PM, hawaiidirtrider said:

Just saying my experience for a variety of bikes. I spent easy over a grand in lithium batteries if a variety of top brands shorai etc. easy 5 or 6 over a period of around 7 years ? and I got agm batteries as well with 3 bikes with estart. Everyone can get whatever they like. The last agm battery I bought I got from this kind of big local battery company  sells batteries for just about everything called Battery Bill. He didn’t carry lithium and I asked why and he explained they had more risk of catching fire. Well my skyrich actually did burn.   just a real experience side note with this brand  happened on my Beta. I don’t know how it might affect others or not but it happened to me. Im just using agm now as it’s cheap and have lasted as long as expensive lithium for  me. 

hmmm, I was considering a shorai battery for my 350, since they are $144,  which I thought they use to be almost $300 batteries. I've pretty much decided a battery(AGM) are all same no matter the brand. Is there a noticeable crank speed between the 2?

[MFGamesta]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:34 PM, hawaiidirtrider said:

Well now I will look at this lifepo . I have  another battery to look and read about. I got an agm battery now but this is an ongoing story looking for improvements as going on.  If things go wrong I kick to start . But better newer batteries I feel will come with further development.
Thanks.

I've been using LiFEPO4 batteries for several years.  They do seem to require higher voltage to keep a charge when riding.  You need a LiFEPO4 charger too so factor that in if you plan to purchase.  I've used EarthX and my new Beta has a different brand (Unibat) and it seems to work fine.

[bradje]

also been impressed with the Unibat in my 2020.  Never had an issue yet.

[hawaiidirtrider]

7 hours ago, LukeBrinkerhoff said:

hmmm, I was considering a shorai battery for my 350, since they are $144,  which I thought they use to be almost $300 batteries. I've pretty much decided a battery(AGM) are all same no matter the brand. Is there a noticeable crank speed between the 2?

No noticeable crank speed difference to me. I think I wanted the lithiums to be stronger in my mind because I spent way  more money . A fully charged battery just seems the same no matter from what I can tell. I mean everyone can go ahead snd try a bunch of lithium batteries like I did. In my case they lasted just as long as agm or typical batteries. I mean I think I feel better that I tried shorais and turntechs and skyrich and whatever different lithiums since 2010. It’s been an expensive lesson.  A bunch seemed to be happy with them so now I know how each worked for me. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by hawaiidirtrider

[Hannibal Babar]

lifepo4 make starter spins a bit faster. Logical,, as starter is directly wired to battery and lifepo4 has a higher cells voltage.  At  100 % charge, standart lead are  12.6v, AMG are 12.8 v and lifepo4  13.6 v.... of course less impedance of lifep4 gives better CCA, but factories use this to make  smaller batteries, compared to lead /amg.... I have both now ( amg and lifepo4) Wont' never use again lifepo4 under 8°celsius....  if you can buy lifepo4 around 60 dollars max, good for you;   Batteries now are just spare parts to be changed as often as chain kits.... I no more give a s;;;t about batteries, just change them,  rather cheaper  than couple of stupid tires and faster to change ?

 

 

 

[firffighter]

We have a local rider who has been in the been in the battery business for his entire career.  He's the go to guy over on KTMTALK for anything battery related. 

His expertise suggests there is a difference in brands and he has only a few he'll endorse for dirt bikers. One being Scorpion.  

The other key component is charger. His suggestion is Optimate for proper battery conditioning. 

I've run both for 4 years now,  zero issues and better cranking.

[Hannibal Babar]

if you open lifepo4 batteries ( which had the led graph to show levels) you will see they are ALL the same : same BMS, (pure bullshit BTW), same cells pack... 

For lead and AGM batteries, it's not rocket science. So if some are said to be better than others,  means they are just ordinary, and  the others are just bad made... ?

I would be more interested to have reports about  pure lead AGM batteries, like   ODYSSEY HAWKER

Any experiences ?

seems hard to find purelead for our bikes' s dimensions

 

 

check fortine, he ma de a good compare. Not mentionning our serie 7 lifrpo4 batteries are around 2.2 aamp only 

"Best Motorcycle Battery? Lead-Acid v. AGM v. Gel v. Lithium" on utube 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Hannibal Babar

[hawaiidirtrider]

29 minutes ago, Hannibal Babar said:

lifepo4 make starter spins a bit faster. Logical,, as starter is directly wired to battery and lifepo4 has a higher cells voltage.  At  100 % charge, standart lead are  12.6v, AMG are 12.8 v and lifepo4  13.6 v.... of course less impedance of lifep4 gives better CCA, but factories use this to make  smaller batteries, compared to lead /amg.... I have both now ( amg and lifepo4) Wont' never use again lifepo4 under 8°celsius....  if you can buy lifepo4 around 60 dollars max, good for you;   Batteries now are just spare parts to be changed as often as chain kits.... I no more give a s;;;t about batteries, just change them,  rather cheaper  than couple of stupid tires and faster to change ?

 

 

 

With batteries it’s the inconsistency. One battery might last long and others not long at all. 

[firffighter]

I'll simply trust the guy who's career it is to know what battery is best suited for dirt bikes.  

BTW , my comment above is in reference to the Scorpion lithium ion battery and Optimate battery charger specifically designed for Lithium ion batteries.  

This combo has worked flawlessly for 4 years here in PNW with pretty significant changes in weather conditions each season.  

I'll never go back to a lead acid. Dated and heavy.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by firffighter

[Hannibal Babar]

57 minutes ago, firffighter said:

I'll simply trust the guy who's career it is to know what battery is best suited for dirt bikes.  

BTW , my comment above is in reference to the Scorpion lithium ion battery and Optimate battery charger specifically designed for Lithium ion batteries.  

This combo has worked flawlessly for 4 years here in PNW with pretty significant changes in weather conditions each season.  

I'll never go back to a lead acid. Dated and heavy.

 

there are many, many parameters which would influence your life and battery use. first the charging system. Lifepo4 needs 13.9v minimum for correct charge. Then riding temperatures. cold, super cold, ram, super hot ? then the start/stops frequency and periodicity in between during a ride ? , then, then, then.....

lifepo4 are great when all works well inside parameters. The motorcycle lifepo4 are rather under powered, (1/3 of agm ones) but recharge super fast. So you don't suffer because of this undercapacity... They give you a strong CA needed for good starter spin, for sure... Then, when shit hits the fan, a good gel or AMG will save your ass... 

[firffighter]

32 minutes ago, Hannibal Babar said:

Then, when shit hits the fan, a good gel or AMG will save your ass... 

This seems to be an important topic for you regarding lead acid vs lithium ion batteries, which is totally fine, I just have no skin in the game and just sharing my experience. 

 All I know is that thousands and thousands of off road riders have used lithium ion batteries across the most diverse conditions possible for many years now and they have proven reliable and effective.  

Historically,  lead acid are quite vulnerable to cold/hot temperatures,  can die without forewarning, and frequency of use can quickly deplete them, especially if not properly conditioned.  

The huge advantage of the lithium ion besides significant weight reduction is that they are easily monitored, provid more longevity is properly conditioned, can provide better (faster)  starting, and, as in the case of an Antigravity battery,  give you an emergency restart feature.  

All I know is batteries are a total nonissue on my bikes. But, I will say, I will only run what an expert in the industry suggests and keep my batteries always properly conditioned.  

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by firffighter

[MFGamesta]

Remember, there is a huge difference between Lithium-ion and Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFEPO4).  I pretty much use the term Lithium-ion by accident as all of my moto batteries are Lithium Iron Phosphate.   When suggesting to friends, just make sure they get the right battery.

https://blog.epectec.com/lithium-iron-phosphate-vs-lithium-ion-differences-and-advantages

This thread is also approaching oil and tire status.

Edited January 14, 2021 by MFGamesta

[firffighter]

20 minutes ago, MFGamesta said:

Remember, there is a huge difference between Lithium-ion and Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFEPO4). 

Good point. Yes, important. Great link! 

My Scorpion is LiFePo4. Has prismatic lithium cells for stronger starts, and more cycles, has its own Battery Management built in the so that the cells stay balanced.

It's performed flawlessly over 3 years now.  I will probably go with Antigravity next go around.

 

20 minutes ago, MFGamesta said:

This thread is also approaching oil and tire status.

I actually enjoyed the information shared so far. Nice for those interested in exploring the ins and outs of battery choices.  

Not to salty.......yet, Lol

Edited January 14, 2021 by firffighter

[Hannibal Babar]

On 1/13/2021 at 10:17 PM, hawaiidirtrider said:

With batteries it’s the inconsistency. One battery might last long and others not long at all. 

yes it can, but having used lots of different batteries in  electronic systems, it's mainly the random factor of charging and use which alters their life... 
Chemistry of battery is too simple to have effect on life of same serie. Talking of course about correctly  manufactured, and not crappy plugs too 
 Look at cars.... In some cars you will change battery every  3 years in another, whatever brand and whatever it's a simple car or one which sucks a lot by accessories, it will last twice longer.... 
Charging system is the weak point, sadly... (including of course all electrical wiring and current drained for nothing) Main problem IMHO, by experience,  is that any battery is good working when used only in less than 40 % of their capacity....  You can look at laptops batteries : Whatever crappy aliexpress batteries I put in my laptop when original ones are end of life, they lastabout  same... And of course, I open them, check from which company cells come from, etc...  

In my yamahas xt125r and past TTRE600, batteries last more than  7 years... The xt125 I bought last year  has a battery  of  8 years old. I just started it yesterday after three months in garage in cold, j ust a normal acid one.. Started like a charm because the minareli engine doens't ask  a lot of juice to wake up... . Put it on charger and back to solid 12. 7 volts....  Our modern bikes are very demanding on amps to start them...  Its a bad agiing factor and the smallest default in internal junction becomes a big mess.....

Now we still have a big problem : you can swap an acid battery to a lifepo4 and charge it  with original regulator as long as you don't go upon 15 volts ( which all regulators prevent ). But LIfepo4 needs more than 14 volts, ideay  14.5  to get a real  fast charge ( which there are the best to perform ) as their deliberatly undersized capacity needs to be restored as fast as possible... They could put an element twice the size of what they put in their shitty plastic box.
Then we will have equivalency of around  6 amp like the AMG ...But  they would make less huge profit, for sure !!!!

Seems that , in any case and use, having a mosfet regulator with a solid  14.5v output would be the way  to keep the lifepo4 always charged after a start,  in a couple of minutes... It's one  of their main advantages , with the high current cranking, and we just can't use it !