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Battery, again.

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2 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

My running voltage went from 13.2-13.4 MAX, to 13.8-14.3V with the new harness and the voltage has NOT changed since day 1 of the harness swap which I had completed sometime early this past summer.  

I think the battery is just worn out as it is small and must have at least 200 hours on it.  

If your voltage is that good then battery is toast! 😎

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1 hour ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Simply put, when the Baja Designs Squadron Pro is on, and the heated gloves are run, the 12.5 to 12.8V is not enough to charge the battery.  

 

1 hour ago, Ben500RR-S said:

My running voltage went from 13.2-13.4 MAX, to 13.8-14.3V with the new harness and the voltage has NOT changed since day 1 of the harness swap which I had completed sometime early this past summer.  

Can you clarify this? Where did the 12.5-12.8 come from? When was that?

Voltage at the battery being 12.5 and system voltage being 13.8 means major resistance in the harness. 

Edited by Josh Rowe

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A true AGM battery will need to be twice the Ah rating of a Lithium one to get the same results / life span
You get 1-3 years out of Li batteries before something comes un-soldered inside the case. Typically the batteries inside last 3-5 years, but the connections to each battery fail.
AGM needs to be TWICE the amp hours and CCA of a Li or you will wear it out. Only 50% of the available energy inside an AGM battery is readily available, and if it falls below a normal charge rate, that number drops quickly.
You cannot fit a battery that big in your bike.................
So, getting one year is about right, as they are not really recommended for off road use where the starts per day can exceed 25 times, easily...... and the charging availability is far more limited (above 3800 rpms for at least 3 min before proper charging takes place) than on a street bike. 
 
 


My factory OEM EarthX is almost 8 years old and is still running strong. I have a Squadron Pro headlamp. My Beta starts each and every time. Even when I’m over 300 degrees, bike sputtering, stalling and gas is boiling. I even had the rubber strap holding it down break and it rattled around for more than a few rides. It has never failed to start right up with the button. I highly recommend the Li battery.

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20 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

 

Can you clarify this? Where did the 12.5-12.8 come from? When was that?

Voltage at the battery being 12.5 and system voltage being 13.8 means major corrosion in the harness. 

When I have the headlight on and the heated gloves on, the voltage drops to 12.5 to 12.8V. 

 

Even with the fan and the headlight on when it is hot, the voltage drops.  

 

If I turn the headlight off but with the fan running, there is 13.5V or so going to the battery and all is well.  

 

Remember, this harness, this 2019 upgraded harness with no diodes, is new going back to like June of 2019-this year.  

 

I doubt there is corrosion in it as I'm not a pressure washer or even a over-washer in general.  

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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37 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

When I have the headlight on and the heated gloves on, the voltage drops to 12.5 to 12.8V. 

If I turn the headlight off but with the fan running, there is 13.5V or so going to the battery and all is well.  

Remember, this harness, this 2019 upgraded harness with no diodes, is new going back to like June of 2019-this year.  

I doubt there is corrosion in it as I'm not a pressure washer or even a over-washer in general.  

I should have said resistance not corrosion. My brand new 2019 had major voltage loss and I found zero corrosion.

What you have said makes me question the harness. 

Your aftermarket light is rated at 40 watts, the stock bulb is 32 watts. That's not a major change. There should be no voltage drop with the light on.

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50 minutes ago, Josh Rowe said:

I should have said resistance not corrosion. My brand new 2019 had major voltage loss and I found zero corrosion.

What you have said makes me question the harness. 

Your aftermarket light is rated at 40 watts, the stock bulb is 32 watts. That's not a major change. There should be no voltage drop with the light on.

There are some mega-threads on the infamous Beta wiring harness', here is mine;

 

 

I'll hold out some hope that the problem is just a worn out AGM battery that has gone through the wringer with all sorts of low voltage/charging issues the past year and a half.  

I'm going to guess that it will solve all of my immediate problems with the FI light and the no-start.  

 

Every single person that has checked voltage when the headlight is on/off, has reported that the voltage drops when the light is on but goes up when it is off so there is definitely a voltage drop when headlights and fans turn on.  

 

Just like the oddity of Beta in that the maximum voltage is at idle and once revved at all, voltage drops.  

 

Here are the two other mega-threads on this;

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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You need to solder the crimps. 

You need your system to be running optimally, not 'good enough'. 

Beta electrical systems are like a college SAE vehicle. Ask me how I know......🤣

my thread

 

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anyone know if the 2020s have fixed this garbage? (ie..connections etc...)

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16 minutes ago, bradje said:

anyone know if the 2020s have fixed this garbage? (ie..connections etc...)

It was reported that the 2019+ harness' had eliminated the diodes at the end of the harness, by the air filter, and upgraded the crimps.  

I have not seen many with the 2019+ bikes with issues. 

In fact, there are many who have not had any issues, no matter the harness they have as the way they ride does not give the charging system a hard time.  

 

The bikes coming with NO kickstarters had better have an upgrade as once the battery voltage drops under a certain amount, no amount of kicking or push-starting will let the bike start.  

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2 hours ago, bradje said:

anyone know if the 2020s have fixed this garbage? (ie..connections etc...)

I don't know if this has been addressed with the 2020's. but you shouldn't let this deter you. maybe a dozen, maybe more or less out of thousands of bikes have reported this. I also thought of doing this as a preventative measure. but the truth is, mine and my friends betas have not had any issues. But I did unplug my headlight to save the wattage

Edited by randysoo

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I had gotten home after work today, unplugged the 1.5A automatic charger, keyed the ignition, let the fuel pump prime, turned the key and the motor spun fast-like a fully charged battery should, and fired the engine right-up and NO FI light.  

It was at least 50 degrees in the garage so that always helps.  

I really should have the battery load-tested to see where it is at amp-wise.  

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6 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

I had gotten home after work today, unplugged the 1.5A automatic charger, keyed the ignition, let the fuel pump prime, turned the key and the motor spun fast-like a fully charged battery should, and fired the engine right-up and NO FI light.  

It was at least 50 degrees in the garage so that always helps.  

I really should have the battery load-tested to see where it is at amp-wise.  

i'm gonna make a video for you my friend

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good video - thanks for doing that for the community.

One question I have and was mentioned in this thread a few times. Why when you increase RPMs do voltage drop? I would think that isn't good as when riding (anything above idle) it would be dropping or am I just not understanding something?

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26 minutes ago, bradje said:

good video - thanks for doing that for the community.

One question I have and was mentioned in this thread a few times. Why when you increase RPMs do voltage drop? I would think that isn't good as when riding (anything above idle) it would be dropping or am I just not understanding something?

BETA, unlike most, has somehow created an electrical system where the highest voltage is at idle and it goes down when running/revving.  

It has been written and even possibly researched by others on here, that it is the fuel pump/FI that sucks the voltage . . . 

 

 

I do know that this morning, in the high 20's on the way to work, just after start-up and a 1-2 minute idle, had seen the voltage, while starting my ride to work, with headlight and gloves-on, down to 12.1 to 12.5V.  The cold motor and needing more fuel due to the cold, may have something for my situations.  

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The ECU does draw more current as rpm rises due to duty cycle of injectors and the spark plug mostly. 

When I was looking at the harness and the electrical system design I was wondering if the capacitor wires were too long and thin and as frequency increases the reactance in the wires was causing the cap to become effectively too small to do its job and causing the regulator to de-regulate output to protect itself or just causing the average voltage to drop because the cap was no longer able to buffer the gap between pulses coming out of the regulator.

My thought was the wires to the cap need to be short 14 gauge not long 22 gauge. Current needs to be able to go in and out as fast as possible for it to properly buffer the pulses from the regulator. 

I consulted with my uncle, who is an electrical engineer, I'm a ME. We spent hours talking about it and going over the electrical diagram. At the end of that we were unsure if the cap was a buffer and/or a filter and because the bike runs fine and I just wanted better charging I decided to leave it alone. 

From what I read a cap that is too large can cause too much current draw from the the regulator and burn it up, so I figured not take the risk. Hard to know if it was designed correctly or not, I suspect not. 

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interesting for sure.

Are we saying in theory that if you were on the gas for hours without idling the charging system would not keep up with the drainage?

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11 minutes ago, bradje said:

interesting for sure.

Are we saying in theory that if you were on the gas for hours without idling the charging system would not keep up with the drainage?

not really. current flows from the highest voltage to the lowest, which means if your battery is at 13.8 and the regulator is lower then you drain your battery down until it matches the regulator. 

the bike should keep running but if that went on long enough the battery would have been drained instead of charged

the battery voltage will only drop down as low as the regulators output voltage, at that point current would flow from the regulator again and sustain the current demand.

the RR-S models without the diodes are a bit different, the ECU can draw power from the battery, on the RE's only accessories can draw from the battery, as the ECU is 'upstream' from the diodes and thus current cannot flow in that direction. on the RE's the ECU runs entirely off the regulator no matter what. 

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