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I found a little more info in a European 2020 accessory catalogue:

beta-charging-system-kit.jpg.9e882b297f2202f9170e4ff61a2cd2b6.jpg

Over on ADVrider, one of the inmates has reported receiving this from Beta under warranty and, after installing it in parallel with the old harness, charging input at the battery went from 12.3 to 14.1.

 

The price in Europe is €60.

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On 1/9/2020 at 7:02 AM, Ben500RR-S said:

I think that very simply, you need to just install the front and rear updated 2019+ harness' and your chronic undercharging issue will be fixed.  

Now that I have a new AGM, even in the extreme cold, the battery is (now)-keeping up. 

I don't understand why you keep buying AGM batteries. Lithium batteries have more power, less weight, require less maintenance, and live 10 times longer. They are ideal for your use.

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27 minutes ago, basalt said:

I don't understand why you keep buying AGM batteries. Lithium batteries have more power, less weight, require less maintenance, and live 10 times longer. They are ideal for your use.

Lithium's are great everywhere.  Everywhere but the cold.  

I'm here in Lawrence Massachusetts.  It has, and will be cold, until March or April.  

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2 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Lithium's are great everywhere.  Everywhere but the cold.  

I'm here in Lawrence Massachusetts.  It has, and will be cold, until March or April.  

 

Also Lithiums need to be charged to a higher voltage (14.4+ volts).   A lithium would be almost fully discharged at 12.0 volts.  So if you charging system is struggling and only putting out 12.x volts, it'll be even worse with a lithium.

Doc

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13 minutes ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Lithium's are great everywhere.  Everywhere but the cold.  

I'm here in Lawrence Massachusetts.  It has, and will be cold, until March or April.  

Ben, I know you're probably already aware of this, but it might possibly help. Lithiums need to be "excited" when cold. 

Also, with a Lithium, it's imperative you have the correct charger and it stays on the charger when not in use. 

We get some  pretty cold stretches here in Oregon and my shop is not heated or insulted. Never had a problem with my Lithium batteries when using above. 

Hope this helps

Edited by firffighter
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Ben, I know you're probably already aware of this, but it might possibly help. Lithiums need to be "excited" when cold. 
Also, with a Lithium, it's imperative you have the correct charger and it stays on the charger when not in use. 
 
Yup. Perform significantly better in the cold as well.

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50 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Ben, I know you're probably already aware of this, but it might possibly help. Lithiums need to be "excited" when cold. 

Also, with a Lithium, it's imperative you have the correct charger and it stays on the charger when not in use. 

We get some  pretty cold stretches here in Oregon and my shop is not heated or insulted. Never had a problem with my Lithium batteries when using above. 

Hope this helps

You must have a verrry nice shop, mine gets insulted all the time!

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3 minutes ago, mtdirtbag said:

You must have a verrry nice shop, mine gets insulted all the time!

Haha. 

eye m a reeel gud spelr

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There are about none, in the snowbike world, that use a Lithium battery as no matter what one does to get the battery to "heat/activate" it so it can get up to speed, the constant extreme cold is just too much for it as there are too many times when the bikes have to be left out and can't be stored in a heated garage/trailer.  

There is just no way around it, yet.  

I will be patiently waiting, for someone to give up the details on that harness that Beta is selling overseas.  I wonder if it is plug and play and will work in parallel with the existing wiring or, if it replaces a harness(')? 

Edited by Ben500RR-S

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here my experience. got the  390RR  2019 in june with lifepo4. worked like achram, i put befoe using it the "charging  kit" harness. solid  14v1 all time... sio all summer and automn, bike was starting like magic in less than 1/3 second. Then I ran at 2° to -2° celsius.  

As an RR , I couldn't start it , warming the lifepo4 by using some watts". But it started coorectly , anyway, took just a few sec (time to warm up 😉)

Bike ran ok all day but I din't have to start it often,  except  2 or  3 times

Back home by trailer bike is dead ( it's another topic in TT )

BUT  I checked the lifepo 4, charged it. Had a solid 14.4 volts whi h dropped to  11 volts after just 2 sec of starter.  Already too low to trust it, but I charged it again, and 14.4 volts came back. Of course, after one start sequence, battery went down to  9 volts. Time to open it lightly  with a small grinder... Verdict  : dislocation of elements.

IMHO  ; my really good charging never sucks the battery, which stayed totally cold ( which should be for all Betas like in any other vehicule) ? I even ride with all lights off and zero accessories... 

Battery never warmed up during ride, no current drained from it. But it got full  charging all time of course....  LIfepo4 infos reports alot about cold process on them , like this one "Another safety issue is cold temperature charging. Consumer grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the packs appear to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode while on a sub-freezing charge." 

 As my charging process works like a charm,  I grinded the plastic rig down the battery box to  be able to put a bigger serie 7 of   6 amp AMG  140 amp cold crank. it gives a 12.9  to 13 volt. Of course it won't have the punch of a lifepo4 and is far heavier ( check balance pics ). It's past century technology. I will put back ASAP a new lifepo4 in March.

Discussed with  a battery seller for robotics, ( automatic gates, access ontrol ) He confirmed me the problem. They have a board to monitor lifepo4 charge versus T°, and under 13v and low Temp,  warm up the battery with a shunt before, then only  start the charging process... I still think it's a rather risky process as the very little difference of voltage in between a cell at 30 % and  80 % makes it rather impossible to know the real situation... 

 just my humble experience and opinion.

 

 

jmt lifepo4 5.jpg

batt life.jpg

batt agm.jpg

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the harness kit is very simple to install . it has a second relay with socket you slide against the relay upon the ECU on left side. it's a  10 min job.

Most of the job is making a parallel direct charge on battery . Protected by a fuse, and this // wiring is activated /desactivated by a relay ( RR, no key, etc...)

Ben  500 rr-s I can try to make some pics  for you tomorrow . But i saw a detailed topic about it on TT forum, if I remember correctly !

update ; the serie 7 amg makes  150 amp cold crank 😉

 

skyrich-sizeguide-lithiumionbatteries.jpg

Edited by Hannibal Babar
correction typing
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On 1/24/2020 at 5:36 PM, Ben500RR-S said:

There are about none, in the snowbike world, that use a Lithium battery as no matter what one does to get the battery to "heat/activate" it so it can get up to speed, the constant extreme cold is just too much for it as there are too many times when the bikes have to be left out and can't be stored in a heated garage/trailer.  

There is just no way around it, yet.  

I will be patiently waiting, for someone to give up the details on that harness that Beta is selling overseas.  I wonder if it is plug and play and will work in parallel with the existing wiring or, if it replaces a harness(')? 

plug and play, my 2019 in shop getting it right now.
 

it runs parallel with the main harness 

it just bypasses the harness so you get better voltage from rectifier to battery.

Edited by Josh Rowe
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On 1/24/2020 at 4:36 PM, firffighter said:

Also, with a Lithium, it's imperative you have the correct charger and it stays on the charger when not in use. 

Lithium batteries do not require maintenance charging like lead acid or agm, its bad for them, one of the reasons for the special chargers and the BMS's. When voltage is where it should be charging stops, it may as well be unplugged after the charging cycle ends. Takes 3-6 months to see significant voltage drop in a healthy battery. Your charger might be plugged in all the time, but its not charging very often after the initial charge cycle when you plugged it in. Leaving plugged in is not really hurting anything but that habit could mask a charging issue, for you to potentially unmask away from civilization.

 

Lead acid or agm batteries only need float charge because they have high parasitic loss and as voltage drops freeze point goes up, freezing is what kills the battery. Voltage and freeze point are directly related. 0 volts and you have basically a plastic box full of water. These batteries don't mind a float charge, some fancy chargers even help break up corrosion on the lead plates and extend battery life.
 

Edited by Josh Rowe

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8 hours ago, Hannibal Babar said:

the harness kit is very simple to install . it has a second relay with socket you slide against the relay upon the ECU on left side. it's a  10 min job.

Most of the job is making a parallel direct charge on battery . Protected by a fuse, and this // wiring is activated /desactivated by a relay ( RR, no key, etc...)

Ben  500 rr-s I can try to make some pics  for you tomorrow . But i saw a detailed topic about it on TT forum, if I remember correctly !

update ; the serie 7 amg makes  150 amp cold crank 😉

 

skyrich-sizeguide-lithiumionbatteries.jpg

I bought a skyrich lithium and it caught fire and burned in the middle of a 3 hour hare scrambles with my Beta 525 rs. . Im lucky it didn’t continue burning the rest of the bike. I didn’t know it had caught fire till after the race. I knew my bike started to boil during the race and the fan stopped working . It’s another reason I stopped using lithium batteries. I have used a couple of shorais and other high end lithiums. It was a waste of money in my case. Besides spending twice as much as an agm battery or more and the lead acid batteries lasting just as long or longer.. Besides whatever improvements to wiring or whatever for the 5 or 6 yr old efi 4 stroke Beta Id get a capacitor and a kicker as well. If a battery dies with 5-6 yr old 4 t carbed Betas then it’s one or 2 kicks and Im still riding all day. That’s how it is with mu 525 rs and 12 350 race. 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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3 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I bought a skyrich lithium and it caught fire and burned in the middle of a 3 hour hare scrambles with my Beta 525 rs. . Im lucky it didn’t continue burning the rest of the bike. I didn’t know it had caught fire till after the race. I knew my bike started to boil during the race and the fan stopped working . It’s another reason I stopped using lithium batteries. I have used a couple of shorais and other high end lithiums. It was a waste of money in my case. Besides spending twice as much as an agm battery or more and the lead acid batteries lasting just as long or longer.. Besides whatever improvements to wiring or whatever for the 5 or 6 yr old efi 4 stroke Beta Id get a capacitor and a kicker as well. If a battery dies with 5-6 yr old 4 t carbed Betas then it’s one or 2 kicks and Im still riding all day. That’s how it is with mu 525 rs and 12 350 race. 

my bad, I must stop using a small android phone in my garage... wrong pic, about lithium, was not the point... sorry....

And for the record ALL lifepo4 batteries are same inside.. jmt, skyrich, etc.... even design and battery controller are same...

the two advantages of lifepo4 are light weight and fast charge ( around 80 % in a couple of minutes ). But for any use  under 5 degrees Celsius, I totally agree it's a no way.... 

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4 hours ago, Josh Rowe said:

Lithium batteries do not require maintenance charging like lead acid or agm, its bad for them, one of the reasons for the special chargers and the BMS's. When voltage is where it should be charging stops, it may as well be unplugged after the charging cycle ends. Takes 3-6 months to see significant voltage drop in a healthy battery. Your charger might be plugged in all the time, but its not charging very often after the initial charge cycle when you plugged it in. Leaving plugged in is not really hurting anything but that habit could mask a charging issue, for you to potentially unmask away from civilization.

 

Lead acid or agm batteries only need float charge because they have high parasitic loss and as voltage drops freeze point goes up, freezing is what kills the battery. Voltage and freeze point are directly related. 0 volts and you have basically a plastic box full of water. These batteries don't mind a float charge, some fancy chargers even help break up corrosion on the lead plates and extend battery life.
 

40 years of electronics show me that the floating charge os the worst for all batteries in any case.

Lifepo4 must not  be stocked full charged. worst situation.

I don't give a s;;;t about how a battery is gonna keep juice after 3 or 6 months of no use. Better sell bike if i don't use it for this time 😉😉 

LIthium batteries now are just a too much generic term.   Lifepo4, even built with lithium too,  are very different.  Voltage of the lifepo4 , because of the flat curve from fully charged to discharged  is not a very usfelull way to know the real remaining charge, sadly... 

 

MY point is that lifepo4 can't be charged under zero degrees celsius. and if you have a correct wiring in your bike, it will act as any boat, car, plane, electric chicken, .... generator giving juice to systems, battery only there to start engine, as generator off...  there are so many bad designs and under wired bikes, that people think it's battery giving juice when running....   well capitor + diodes without any battery is enough to run system, even EFI's ones 😉 

I just can saw that with my correct stator and wiring, running bike perfectly, the lifepo4 battery got charge under -2°. and you can see result on my past pic...

but i i know you know all this already 🙂

 I agree about voltage /water/icing too

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I bought a skyrich lithium and it caught fire and burned in the middle of a 3 hour hare scrambles with my Beta 525 rs. . Im lucky it didn’t continue burning the rest of the bike. I didn’t know it had caught fire till after the race. I knew my bike started to boil during the race and the fan stopped working . It’s another reason I stopped using lithium batteries. I have used a couple of shorais and other high end lithiums. It was a waste of money in my case. Besides spending twice as much as an agm battery or more and the lead acid batteries lasting just as long or longer.. Besides whatever improvements to wiring or whatever for the 5 or 6 yr old efi 4 stroke Beta Id get a capacitor and a kicker as well. If a battery dies with 5-6 yr old 4 t carbed Betas then it’s one or 2 kicks and Im still riding all day. That’s how it is with mu 525 rs and 12 350 race. 

 that's the worst, to have fire starting ( speciality of my past big red pig Honda, after some drops on left side and airbox full of fuel  )

take  lot of cold blood to act properly in this case :(      Sadly for EFI's bikes, fuel pump, injectors and EFI need juice you can't get with the kick start when voltage dropped down .  (and efficiency of beta kick start option on these bikes is so so ) a powerbank is cheaper and more efficient for us... 

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On 12/27/2019 at 12:19 AM, bradje said:

390I am riding in Northeastern Nova Scotia. Extreme heat and humidity in summer. Wicked cold in winter.

I guess I am concerned with initial purchase perse..If i was to take a meter with me and right before signing the papers what would i want to see the battery:

1. Without running, key off

2. without running key on cold

3. after cold start, headlight on as it is automatic

4. started and running long enough for fan to start, headlight still on of course.

used my bike ( EFI 390RR) all summer and automn; As an old fart crashing a lot, i use starter lots of time during a day ( shutting bike too to be able to discuss with others at stop points, thanks to the crazy loud exhaust  :( )  Low beam was ON all time ( since,  i put a switch for stealth mode ), and even with Fan ON, the  14.1 volts ( with new harness charging kit option) never dropped down  13.9 v.. Each time after a start, battery voltage rised from around 13.4 v to  13.9 v in less than a min , and back to  14.1 volts in less than a couple of min.  Read so many things about beta voltage problems, that I  put  a small led voltmeter connected to battery  to monitor real time when riding, and second voltmeter at front harness too.  Apart from  my problems when I rode vsub zero degrees celsius, it always started right away, whatever bike up side dow, super hot weather, bean and fan ON...

so don't worry, if a  2019 bike, buy the harness charging kit ( 10 min to install) , put switch to turn of beams when not needed, and you can do too the three position swithc i put near fan : always OFF ( just to start bike without fan working)  AUto = triggered by T° sensor, always ON ( to cool down before an hard single trail climb , the special " I want to follow young guy in his husky 200", read "i want to try " 🙂  )

inter fan.jpg

Edited by Hannibal Babar
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12 hours ago, Josh Rowe said:

Lithium batteries do not require maintenance charging like lead acid or agm, its bad for them, one of the reasons for the special chargers and the BMS's. When voltage is where it should be charging stops, it may as well be unplugged after the charging cycle ends. Takes 3-6 months to see significant voltage drop in a healthy battery. Your charger might be plugged in all the time, but its not charging very often after the initial charge cycle when you plugged it in. Leaving plugged in is not really hurting anything but that habit could mask a charging issue, for you to potentially unmask away from civilization.

 

Lead acid or agm batteries only need float charge because they have high parasitic loss and as voltage drops freeze point goes up, freezing is what kills the battery. Voltage and freeze point are directly related. 0 volts and you have basically a plastic box full of water. These batteries don't mind a float charge, some fancy chargers even help break up corrosion on the lead plates and extend battery life.
 

That was almost a year ago, but that's why I specifically said a "correct charger"

Before I went to with lithium ion batteries several years ago, I did my homework and contacted a fellow Oregon rider who has been with Battery Plus for decades and spoke with him.

He pointed me in the right direction and I only use the Optimate charger specifically designed for lithium ion motorcycle batteries. 

https://tecmate.com/new/why-optimate-lithium/

In winter conditions I also "excite" the battery before start up. 

With the Beta, it's also important to do a passive reset if going into cold weather season. 

 

Edited by firffighter

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10 minutes ago, firffighter said:

That was almost a year ago, but that's why I specifically said a "correct charger".

Yea I realised after the fact how old that was 🤪

It's that time of year again anyways.

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