2t off road whoops trouble

[catmanz440]

I know this has been discussed at length however I'm hoping some whoops experts riding 2t bikes can chime in. I'm riding a 2016 300xcw and well, I just plain suck at whoops. The deeper, looser, and sharper pitched the worse and slower I get. I'm well aware of body positioning and saying "weight back and pin it" just isn't doing it for me. I tend to get quite a bit of kick back out of the rear which may be fast rebound however it feels good and planted everywhere else, so perhaps it's body positioning. My biggest struggles are:

1. Which gear? I tend to ride 3rd lower in the RPM range as it's smoother however I lose a lot of momentum. 2nd on the pipe makes me nervous (perhaps unfounded) that I'm going to whiskey throttle and loose control. 

2. Loss of momentum. The deeper the whoops (typically quite loose and erraticaly spaced) I just can't get my timing right. The front will dive and game over. Loss of momentum.

3. Fear-I have a commitment problem and I'm concerned if I bash the forks hard into the face of another whoops I'll eat it hard. I can do some smoother, better spaced whoops decently however I just have a huge fear of losing control of the front end and eating it. I've had plenty of good riding friends ride my bike and none say the suspension is poorly set up.

4. Rhythm, or lack thereof. I cannot seem to maintain a rhythm. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the help!

[Ltlhondarida125]

You said your friends say the suspension is good but this rly sounds like a suspension related problem. You have linkage on your bike? that might be the problem if you dont. Linkage rly helps in squirrely sections. I've never been good with whoops or brake bumps in a turn but I know the only good way to handle them is being on the throttle. No hesitation, if u cut the throttle for an instant then u will nosedive. Also, there is no specific gear for whoops it all about how fast you are going into them, first is probably too slow but after that any other gear would probs be ok as long as your are going fast enough for the gear. AND you have to be on the pipe, if you aren't then u will worry about whiskey throttle. The only way to handle them fast at least is to get on the pipe, squeeze the bike with your knees, and lean back. (Lean back enough, there is not an exact spot to lean back to)

[Hans Schmid]

Is the suspension properly sprung for your weight?

31 minutes ago, Ltlhondarida125 said:

You have linkage on your bike? that might be the problem if you dont. Linkage rly helps in squirrely sections.

Lack of linkage is not the problem 

[Fatt_Tones]

 

Sounds like you get the basic concepts.  Are you stiff or loose?  Body position can be perfect but if you don’t stay loose and let the bike work under you then you’ll be fighting it and you’ll eat it.  Stay a gear tall and be accelerating through the whoops.  Be squeezing with your legs but at the same time I can’t emphasize enough the importance of staying loose.  keep your form!   So many people fight the bike.  If you feel it starting to swap a bit do NOT let off.   Oh and be on the balls of your feet.  Let those bars work into and away from your chest.....no fighting the bars!  Lean into the power.  Bike should always push you, never should it be pulling you.  Look well ahead once you’re committed.  Look where you want to go and never down at the whoops directly in front of you. 

 

This said you have to have a good suspension set up and my xc-w was horrible in whoops before I got the suspension done and I’m actually a pretty decent whoops rider.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Fatt_Tones

[catmanz440]

Yes it is. Full Factory offroad has valved it, confirmed springs are correct, and fluids are reasonably fresh at 20ish hrs.

Is the suspension properly sprung for your weight?
Lack of linkage is not the problem 

[catmanz440]

 
Sounds like you get the basic concepts.  Are you stiff or loose?  Body position can be perfect but if you don’t stay loose and let the bike work under you then you’ll be fighting it and you’ll eat it.  Stay a gear tall and be accelerating through the whoops.  Be squeezing with your legs but at the same time I can’t emphasize enough the importance of staying loose.  keep your form!   So many people fight the bike.  If you feel it starting to swap a bit do NOT let off.   Oh and be on the balls of your feet.  Let those bars work into and away from your chest.....no fighting the bars!  Lean into the power.  Bike should always push you, never should it be pulling you.  Look well ahead once you’re committed.  Look where you want to go and never down at the whoops directly in front of you. 
 
This said you have to have a good suspension set up and my xc-w was horrible in whoops before I got the suspension done and I’m actually a pretty decent whoops rider.
 
 

Thanks. I bet I tense up especially in the deeper and steeper stuff. I have a fear of plowing into the face of the next whoop and then I lose speed/momentum. I tend to get fearful coming in a gear low in the powerband and gear up to smooth it out but lack of speed and I'm sure tensing up. A lot of our whoops have a loose kitty litter consistency which doesn't help. Probably need to pick a section and do it over and over. Any suggestions on dealing with inconsistent depths and spacing?

[Hans Schmid]

Just now, catmanz440 said:

Yes it is. Full Factory offroad has valved it, confirmed springs are correct, and fluids are reasonably fresh at 20ish hrs.

Then I would believe the valving it too soft for your application...Stiffer valving is going to be what's needed, but it will come at a cost of plushness

As for gearing, mid RPM, not wide-open and not idling, weight slightly back, grip with knees, balls of your feet, low attack position and commitment... Uneven whoops you'll never get correct as they are uneven... 

[catmanz440]

Thanks Hans. It is valved on the soft side designed for slower rocky single track which Colorado has in abundance however more skilled friends do okay on my bike. I suspect a lot comes down to commitment and body position as you said. If I'll never get the uneven ones correct is it best just to charge them just the same anyway even if I'm hitting the face of the next whoop with the front wheel? That's where I definently tense up.

 

Then I would believe the valving it too soft for your application...Stiffer valving is going to be what's needed, but it will come at a cost of plushness

As for gearing, mid RPM, not wide-open and not idling, weight slightly back, grip with knees, balls of your feet, low attack position and commitment... Uneven whoops you'll never get correct as they are uneven... 

 

[Fatt_Tones]

32 minutes ago, catmanz440 said:

1 hour ago, Fatt_Tones said:

 
Sounds like you get the basic concepts.  Are you stiff or loose?  Body position can be perfect but if you don’t stay loose and let the bike work under you then you’ll be fighting it and you’ll eat it.  Stay a gear tall and be accelerating through the whoops.  Be squeezing with your legs but at the same time I can’t emphasize enough the importance of staying loose.  keep your form!   So many people fight the bike.  If you feel it starting to swap a bit do NOT let off.   Oh and be on the balls of your feet.  Let those bars work into and away from your chest.....no fighting the bars!  Lean into the power.  Bike should always push you, never should it be pulling you.  Look well ahead once you’re committed.  Look where you want to go and never down at the whoops directly in front of you. 
 
This said you have to have a good suspension set up and my xc-w was horrible in whoops before I got the suspension done and I’m actually a pretty decent whoops rider.
 
 

Read more  

Thanks. I bet I tense up especially in the deeper and steeper stuff. I have a fear of plowing into the face of the next whoop and then I lose speed/momentum. I tend to get fearful coming in a gear low in the powerband and gear up to smooth it out but lack of speed and I'm sure tensing up. A lot of our whoops have a loose kitty litter consistency which doesn't help. Probably need to pick a section and do it over and over. Any suggestions on dealing with inconsistent depths and spacing?

 

I would suggest to enter with enough speed, keep your form and stay committed.

 

[Shawn_Mc]

This isn't a bike issue. It in your head. You're seeing a whoop section and tensing up and stressing out. I think the other part is a lack of experience and knowing what whoops you can blitz and what you can jump through.

And going through sandy loose whoops is the toughest just because the lack of definitive traction. The rock and root style valving you've mentioned is exactly what you DONT want for sandy whoops. But you've gotta set the bike up for what you encounter the most of and just get through the other stuff. A bike good in the whoops is rarely any good anywhere else.

My advice is to calm down, mentally. Stop looking at those sections as your nemesis. I rode the California deserts for decades. There are literally miles and miles of loose sand whoop sections. I loathe them just because of the amount of work it takes to get through them. And nobody but nobody is blitzing an 8 mile section of whoops. 

[catmanz440]

More speed, commitment, and paying attention to body position helped a lot. Thanks for the input!

[Mad Mark]

it def helps if you susp is setup for stuff like that. Also pinch the bike with your legs. Stay on the pipe through whoops. leaning back isn’t always best I hit whoops in attack position and neutral most times. But constantly accelerating and not letting off is best for whoops and speed.